DZ-122: Escalating Antagonism Across Genres — Transcript

Those who haven't seen it for a while, GC, same name as Chaz's dog, clearly that was an homage, Chaz.

You just love Meet the Parents.

Yeah. Hi, I'm Chaz Fisher.

And I'm Stu Willis.

And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where two emerging filmmakers try to work out what makes great screenplays work. And as with our previous episode, we have one established filmmaker to help lead us on this journey.

Welcome back, Kim, to the show.

Thanks so much for having me.

I mean, you haven't left. This is still the same. This is part two of our, I mean, it's two parts, so it's only for the series. Part two of our episodes on Escalating Antagonism. The first one, we broke down sinners and its relationship to the tombs cycle, transgressions, omens, manifestation, banishment, and slumber. And the idea is it's a cycle. And we also brought up a related idea also from the Mothership TTRPG, which is save, survive, solve, which are goals for your characters. And in Mothership, you're meant to give characters the options of doing all three, but they'll often be put in a situation where they could only do two or one of them and they have to make some hard decisions.

And in this particular episode, we're moving out of the horror arena, away from Mothership, away from Sinners, into two genres expressly requested by our Patreons to further find out how we can generate characters. Antagonism and thus generate story fuel? How can we power that middle of our story through escalating antagonism? And we are looking today at Rebel Ridge, written and directed by Jeremy Saulnier, and Meet the Parents, story by Greg Gliena and Mary Ruth, screenplay by Jim Hertzfeld and John Hamburg.

Just before we go into Rebel Ridge, I think one of the interesting things that struck me in our analysis was that we had two, that there were two sources of antagonism in Sinners, one which was the Ku Klux Klan, which is the Ku Klux Klan and the other source being the vampires, which are a hive mind. And as a complete aside, it actually struck me that there was an interesting article from Cory Doctroy, the sci-fi writer and futurist, talking about how the Ku Klux Klan is actually a pyramid scheme historically, right? And I'm like, oh, so they're actually really connected to the hive mind pyramid scheme of the vampires. Anyway, so I think that's just something that as we go into Rebel Ridge is going to be interesting to look at whether tombs also applies with multiple sources of antagonism in this film or not. I'm not sure.

Yeah. I mean, look, if anyone hasn't listened to the past episode, you should probably go back and listen to it because we really break down what the tomb cycle is, how it can generate story, how it maps imperfectly. And so it's like really mapping the escalating sources of antagonism very separately from the classic protagonist journey and act breaks and those kinds of paradigms. So, if you haven't listened to that previous episode, probably best to go back to listen to it before we continue our exploration and application of tombs in Rebel Ridge and Meet the Parents.

Yeah, let's continue our journey with the opening journey of Rebel Ridge when we find our main character on a pushbike.

I need to report a crime. And this was Cash? Yes, ma'am. Okay, he just got accessible. Big guy must weigh 250. We're gonna hold on to this money. I didn't get his badge number, but his last name's Marston. You're gonna need to leave. And I suspect number two. Hey, Mike! I'm posting bail. Stay low, all right? You can fight for the money, but that'll take you most of a year and cost you twice what you're owed. And it's legal? It's law. May I at least see my cousin? You can fuck right off. I would love to, sir, just as soon as I get my money back. He did not stand in my station, in front of my officers, and set turns. You need to be very, very careful. Let's not do that. Chief! What are we looking at? Uh-huh. I think he's Marine Corps martial arts MCMAP. One mind, any weapon. Whatever you decide to do, you do it damn far from here.

Rebel Ridge opens with Terry Richmond as he's cycling on a pushbike listening to Iron Maiden. With his headphones on, it's a great use of diegetic sound because he can't hear the police car behind him with the sirens on, who then bumps into him to knock him off a bike. A kind of version of the pit maneuver, which they do at the end, which is where you use the car to kind of spin a vehicle out of control. They basically find him to have $36,000 in cash. He tries to be as honest as possible, but they decide that they're going to seize the cash via civil forfeiture because they believe it's involved in trafficking.

It's called civil asset forfeiture and it's legal well it's a law it's supposed to help feds buy cartels right but they didn't find any drugs i saw all they need is suspicion because the seizure isn't tied to any criminal charges and here's where it gets real murky chief gets to keep the, for discretionary funds, whatever that means. Someone in Permits told me he bought a $900 margarita machine for Cinco de Mayo. Right, so never mind me, huh? Share it with your amendment as a due process. Doesn't matter. It's the 5th and 14th, but when they bring this case, you won't even be named. It's literally gonna read, how much money was it again? 36K. It'll read the township of Shelby Springs versus $36,000, because your property has no civil rights. Okay, but you can help me get it back. Okay thank you i mean yes you can fight for the money but that'll take you most of a year and cost you twice what you're owed.

Terry's already given them the reason that he wants the money which is it's for bail for his brother cousin cousin that's an important distinction because someone else also says it's his brother he's like no it's my cousin and he basically needs to kind of the the first part of the film is him trying to get the money to get his brother out on bail Because as it turns out, his brother, his cousin, turns out his cousin would be in kind of peril because he informed on a gangster, right? That he's basically probably going to get shivved in prison. The long story short is he is targeted by the police. They find him with money, shake him down, take it. His cousin ends up being killed as he warned them. The police realize they fucked up, throw him out of town. But he's brought back into town. Things go from bad to worse, and he tries to extract revenge against the corrupt police officers.

I mean, in that very, very short summary, you're missing that he is like John Rambo, like he's a superstar in hand-to-hand combat in particular, in unarmed combat, and so the police of this town have fucked with the wrong guy.

Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. What? MCMAP. Combat system combines hand-to-hand, close quarters... Oh, I think he's on the Wikipedia page teaching jujitsu to the 6th Marine Regiment. Okay. Steam building. One mine, any weapon. Calling any units on patrol. Yep.

Like he is capable and proves that he's capable of taking down an entire armed police force without using a single gun.

That sequence is so good when they're like McMap.

Oh yeah.

He was in the army but he never he was never.

He never went to afghanistan or iraq oh uh don johnson literally says like my heart damn near skipped a beat like that's the omen for him is.

Is

Like the mcmaps.

Thing or the um.

Yeah they've got the annoying setup they're.

Rebooting the wi-fi.

A wi-fi up yet it's coming.

And she's googling it and then they have the oh shit mcmaps dance marine corps.

Martial arts program just.

As the situation escalates for him to have to use the power so.

But we've got two competing forces here we've got the corrupt police force and then we've got uh terry's abilities really and i they are in clear antagonism to each other because you sent a message on the discord saying terry's the monster in this like terry's the source of antagonism like he's not but you can there is a all of tombs will map equally onto terry's escalation as it will map onto the police's escalation in this it's.

Really great to see on the poster, the tagline is their laws, his rules. And it's just this very clear distillation of like, The transgressions go both ways.

Yeah.

And I think this is useful. We've talked about it before. Not that everyone is into writing loglines as a development tool, but I often find it useful to write a logline from the perspective of different characters, particularly the primary antagonist. And actually, we're working on some casting stuff, Chas and I, at the moment, and we've actually re-ridden the synopsis centered on the character of every cast.

Oh, my God.

Particularly the the the villain and it's such a good like way of rigor testing this and so i love the idea that tombs when i watch this and went well of course because in an action movie because what we haven't tapped into we've talked about the horror and the monster but what does that mean right as a source of antagonism not every movie is going to have an antagonist that you could describe as the monster or the horror right and we're talking about something which is of incredible power, right? We did a whole series on antagonism and we talked about things about does the source of antagonism have agency or not? Does it make decisions or not? Can you negotiate with it or not? And you can't negotiate with the xenomorph, right? You can't negotiate with the predator, but the predator has needs. The predator is different to the storm, right? And it's possibly a little bit different to the shark in Jaws. The shark in Jaws is probably a little bit closer to the storm, but it's not a random thing, right? These things exist in a spectrum. And, you know, Rennick has got a need in Sinners that he's trying to fulfill, and you can't really negotiate with Rennick, right? Right. You can kind of cite, like, you can satisfy his hunger, but that's not a negotiation. And I think what's interesting about Rebel Ridge is Terry does try to negotiate and strike a deal with Chief Sandy Byrne, the character, the chief of police of the town's police, played by Don Johnson. And Don Johnson rejects that because he basically says he basically feels like he's not someone you negotiate with because it belittles him.

This is a perfect example of the tombs thing, because I think that deal that you're talking about is Terry's transgression that awakes the manifestation of evil that is these corrupt cops. He has the audacity to come into that police station to report the cops as having robbed him and then offer a deal.

To offer the deal, yeah.

There's a great line from Don Johnson later where he says, the deal was fair. The issue is that you felt that you were allowed to offer it. He tells him that he has transgressed against the rules of the laws or the rules of this system of this world.

It's about power, yeah.

Like, the transgression against Terry is very obvious. It happens in the first 30 seconds of the film. It's the cops running him off the road and then stealing his money. And then there is a clear set of a clear omens sequence, which is Terry just trying to find out whether what's happened to him is legal or not and what he can do about trying to fix the situation. And there's almost like this wonderful sort of Kafkaesque unraveling of how this civil forfeiture works as explained to him by Summer.

So, that's the mystery to solve. One, what it is they're doing and then the larger corruption.

Yeah. Well, the mystery to solve definitely escalates because there's the initial mystery, and it's almost on a per sequence basis, but it's like the initial mystery is like, are they allowed to get away with it? And the answer, it gets resolved that the first act of yes, there's actually nothing he can do legally within the system to get his money back and to get his cousin out of jail. And then there's the beginnings of the manifestation, both on Terry's side and on Don Johnson's side. And then the cops actually, unfortunately, Terry's cousin dies. And that there is a point in the middle of the movie where Terry could let everything go. And he gets pulled back in because they try to frame Summer.

The clerk, she a clerk?

Like six cases away from JD.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm working. Hey, look, I'm sorry. It's just these cops are fucking with me. Yeah, they're saying the same thing about you. They're transferring him. He's on the bus right now. Sorry to hear that. You said you could help.

And that's when there's a new mystery posed because they're trying to figure out why is it that the cops are doing it. The scale of the conspiracy opens up and Terry goes, they're doing this for a reason. Why have they offered me this out?

So, this structure is really interesting because we talk about it then being both ways. But in some ways, and I've seen this pattern before, is this is almost like Tom Tombs.

Oh, gosh.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally.

As in the midpoint, they succeed in banishing him.

Yeah.

But then they transgress by going after his friend, and thus he comes back, and then it escalates. And I say I've seen this structure before, because I went away with some of my friends on the weekend. And I watched three canon 1980s action movies. I watched American Ninja 1, American Ninja 2, and Avenging Force. And they are all very similar to this, which is basically the bad guys seem to be the monsters until the middle of the film or so. And then it turns out the actual monster is the action hero that they've awakened who's going to absolutely fuck them up.

Yeah.

Right? And it's kind of an interesting flip because you could, if you remade Rebel Ridge, I can't believe I'm just, it's just what we're talking about. Like if it was like the predator on a bike knocking over and then you're like, oh, like you could tell this story from the cop's point of view and about them being picked off one by one.

Well, I had a reading of this that was like, the horror for me wasn't so much like these cops that are corrupt or that have chosen to be corrupt out of greed. I'm not saying that anything they do is justified, but it was really interesting that detail that when they finally unraveled the mystery, the town is essentially bankrupt because of the civil case that happened two years prior. And they are exploiting civil forfeiture legislation in order to like wrongly imprison a whole bunch of people. Get cash from the people who try and bring cash into town to get to post those people's bail and use that money to go back into the community.

What's on Mike's video? What'd they do to him? Enough to get us sued. You seen it? No. Let me guess. You don't want to fucking know. Wouldn't matter if I did. There was another lawsuit and it's disincorporation. Shelby Springs disappears. Swallowed up by the parish. You all gonna leave me like this? Alive? Yeah. For now. You knew Judy. What would you think about all this? What you doing to me? She knew what you did. She'd want to watch.

So like in the cops point of view what they're doing is like making the best of a shitty situation and and the i think rebel ridge does a really good job of like showing these systems of of of power and oppression like the legislation of civil forfeiture breeds corruption it uh it enables and facilitates corruption as opposed to the corruption being like you know these there's few bad eggs uh bad apples or whatever rotten apples in this town um it's like this nationwide rot uh that humans are caught up in on on both sides of the law or on all of these different factions.

The system is designed to do this, right? This is kind of the looser effect, if you know about it. The system is actually designed to create this kind of behavior, and then the system can deny it, which is kind of the lucifer effect is kind of some of the stuff that happened at Abu Ghraib and the way that the military was like, no, no, no, that's the bad apples. And then the psychologist who was involved with it, he ran the Stanford experiment and all of his career since then is being like, holy shit, I ran the Stanford experiment. I need to make up and work out what the fuck happened. And he talks about there being systems that are designed to create this kind of abhorrent behavior because it benefits the system, but allows the system to then divorce themselves from that behavior and be like, well, that wasn't us. And you are right. And I think what is great about this in terms of the manifestation and the mystery, it is the omens build so well that when you get to that point when you're like, oh, this isn't just some corrupt cops like we thought in act one, like in the opening scene when they knocked him off. This is literally the whole town surviving on blood money. Yeah.

And I think, Stu, to your point about this being Tom Tombs, I think this film more classically maps, you could see Transgression as being the opening of the film, Omens being the rest of the first act, the whole second act being Manifestation, and then the final act being Banishment, and then ending with just a shot of slumber. Well, it's more than a shot. It's when on the highway, when they learn that they're being escorted, not... Chased and and there is uh slumber there so i think and.

It's interesting because yeah there is this question of like have the cops just turned on their captain so.

The end.

Of the film if you haven't seen it is the captain shoots this cop which.

They coden.

Servico he's kind of he's not a double agent he's still corrupt.

He's just feeding he's the one who runs him off the the bike at the beginning and.

I love that i love that.

He's kind.

Of the good guy but not really right like but i think it gets into the complexities.

Of those things right definitely like.

I don't think it's condemning his behavior i don't think it's presenting him as a hero it's a little bit more neutral in terms of like yeah he's obviously uncomfortable with what's going on but he's still participating in it.

I didn't.

Love the kind of cop redemption arcs we.

Got towards.

The end of that film but i do think that that's what made me feel like this film was not saying the antagonists of these four cops or.

However many.

It was like this system that twists.

Yes you.

Know they made a really big deal out of most of these cops are fathers of kids.

Like that they've got families they're just like us yeah is.

She hurt as i could tell now where are they taking on i don't know look man we're not all like i'm married okay okay hey hey i got a kid so yeah so does she so let's not waste any fucking time but.

It's like really trying to regardless of whether you agree with that politic saying that these are human beings caught up in this current system.

But what i was gonna say and i fully agree with that by the way i think each sequence runs through its own tomb cycle i think each sequence culminates in a banishment and a slumber and then start the next sequence starts with a new transgression right so like even just at the the beginning so the the culmination of terry goes in and reports the cops to themselves, and he is literally told to fuck off right yeah.

We'll follow up on this don't exactly have visiting hours around here but if you come back here at 9 a.m on monday morning you can see your cousin and we'll put this to bed, Thank you. Now fuck off.

And he leaves. And he goes. And he goes and catches a fish and has a little cookout. And he knows that if he arrives at 9am the next morning, he's going to get to see his cousin. And they're going to do the deal. And then the transgression is that the chief has fucked him over. Right? And so there's another transgression. And then there's more omens. Omens and that culminates in the to me the the overall manifestation like the shit-eating grin scene is when a terry understands how corrupt this cop is that there is going to be no, nothing he can do and even talks about the acronym of pace of all the tactics that he can do and he's run through all of them and he's now on the last one and it's also that wonderful mcmap revelation when the cops understand the manifestation of Terry.

I see. Do you? Because the offer you made wasn't unreasonable. In fact, it was more than fair as far as the trouble it would save. Well, it still stands. So you don't see. It wasn't the offer you made. The fact that you thought you were entitled to make one. Well, my intentions weren't too fair. Straight to hell with your intentions. You did not stand in my station in front of my officers and set terms i wasn't aware it was a pissing contest come on now isn't it always so whatever i say my cousin you could offer me eternal life or a can't fish sandwich and the answer would still be the same especially since you stopped calling me sir which is about the only thing you had going for you well see that's a courtesy I extend only so far.

Right. And I'm all still at the first act turning point, but then we've got a whole other sequence, multiple sequences in the midpoint, which end in a banishment. Uh, Stu, you talked about the deescalation where Terry is literally he's left, right? He has been banished. His cousin said he's, he's clean. He's, he's away free. Right. But then the cops transgress by the, trying to fake Summer's- by overdosing Summer. And so, he's brought back in. And so, I think in this film, more classically, you can actually see not only the overall escalation, Tombs applying overall to the film to both Terry as an antagonist to these cops and the system of corruption against Terry, but then also within each sequence, there is this escalation and cycle.

If the cops didn't shake down his friend who gave him the money in the first place, this Chinese restaurant, because he rings him up again and goes, I need another $10,000. And the guy's like, I can't, because the cops have just turned up and seized a bunch of the cash in the safe. If they hadn't done that, again, none of this would have happened. And so, I think it's a really good analysis. It is actually a really good structural tool. Right go tombs for each sequence and then you go who is now transgressing to wake the someone and it gives you that kind of uh you know positive negative alternate contrast thing with this but character a is now slumbering but character b now has transgressed yeah but then now maybe they're the one who's slumbered and then the other person transgresses right and that's what makes this film have such a riveting push-pull to it. And I think the other thing it does, coming back to the solve, survive, and save, is... The beginning, he wants to save his brother, right? The soul of the mystery is why the cop's dealing with his money. Like, that we learn. Like, we don't know it's a mystery until it kind of becomes clear that it's systematic. And then once his brother's dead, the save is transferred onto Summer. That's the very reason he's brought back, right? That they've kind of misjudged that he has affection for her. They thought she was alone and they're trying to get her off because she's the one who's close to uncovering the mystery. Yeah. Right? And then the solve is how do we actually banish these cops?

Yeah.

Like, what information do we need? And then they work it out that part of the conspiracy is the body cam footage. That the reason they've been holding these people for the 90 days or whatever it is is so the basically there's an expiry on the body cam footage as evidence and it gets white right and that's why they've been holding these people and they they kick them down to whatever it is in the american court system so they don't have to go to you know it's all that kind of fucking of the system that people can exploit so i think what's interesting is how those two things kind of work together in this and you get that sense of power and as we said they're both monsters for each other right they you've kind of got the the many the army of the cops and when he agrees to meet them at rebel ridge it takes its time oh yeah showing how many people have turned up and you're like oh right but.

I mean let's talk about that moment because that's the transition from, classically, the low point of the film, some has been taken by the police, and the mystery has been resolved, and then it's about, we're coming up into the big interaction between Terry and the police. And there's deliberately a slumber, right? Terry says, I'll see you at dawn. Like he's got that badass speech about, you know, maybe I'll see you coming and maybe if you're lucky you'll see me.

Fucking first light. How about right now? I gotta see what's waiting for me. Works out well for you too. Oh yeah? Yeah. You just might see me coming.

Right they deliberately take their foot off the gas and have a pause right and then before he acts he calls the chief with that again another series like this is like almost classic 80s, stallone or schwarzenegger dialogue but aaron pierre just fucking nails it and jeremy solonier writes the shit out of it but that phone call where he's like you know how you're talking about de-escalation.

Yeah, it's gotten out of hand. Real soup sandwich. We can agree on that. Got me thinking about that conversation we had in the cruiser. About de-escalation. That also takes both sides, you know. So I was thinking, what if we just walk away? Well, now you're starting to talk. Nah.

And then I thought, nah. And then he just pulls the wall off the cop shop. So, that's him transgressing. There's been a slumber, there's been banishment, and he is committing the transgression of, he's calling him up and telling him, we could de-escalate this, we could solve this through the negotiation. And then I thought, nah.

So good yeah yeah i'm just like i really like this movie like probably right up until the end i felt like i'm going off topic a little bit but the like the repeat beat of drugging summer again felt like gratuitous um and maybe like a bit damsel and distressy and this notion of like having one of the good apples turning but yeah i think what struck me as like throughout the movie they do such a good job of like portraying power but not necessarily directly and and actively um like the first time terry and summer meet they go into a diner and she gets a drink and then they're talking about civil forfeiture legislation a cop walks in and a severe rob uh summer goes quiet and then goes let's let's leave and they just they have to exit the diner in order to continue their conversation it's just this very very short small thing and then later in the uh. Happens multiple times but like cop cars following behind and then maybe like once they cross the bridge to go out of town the cop car turns around it's later revealed that that is um serpico or whoever like you know that their ally but just like a cop car with no face attached to it is so ominous uh in this in this world um yeah they they do a great job of like almost um having these, like, sentient creatures lurking about.

And Aaron's, sorry, not Aaron, Terry's transgression is to not be afraid of them.

Having the audacity to be a martial arts badass.

Yeah. But he's not just, it's not just he knows that he's physically in control of the situation. He's also intellectually, he's in control of his emotions nearly at all points. There's two points, and I think they're really important, where he actually shows his emotions. Actually, I'm going to say three. The first one is when the police chief has just fucked him over, reneged on the deal, and Terry rides his push bike after the prison bus so that he can talk to his cousin and tell him his plan. And then because the bus is heavily geared and the bus driver has seen him coming and is trying to like drive away. Terry in this sign of like physical triumph has everyone cheering him on as on his push bike, he rides, overtakes the bus. And the only reason he's doing that is to show this bus driver that he is more powerful, that he is not afraid. You know, it's this moment of triumphalism that he is not supposed to experience. The other moment of emotion is clearly when his cousin has died. But then the final moment when he pulls that wall off the cop shop after the thing, yeah, where he's just like screaming, like he's just letting the adrenaline out. And those are the only moments where, like, he's letting his body and his emotions out, but it feels like he knows that he's doing that and he's allowing himself to do that and they're supporting his objective. Totally. So, he's not just a physical threat. He's, yeah.

It's so interesting that I was thinking about, like, restraint and self-control in the context of, like, survival for this movie. Like, uh, even just from the first 30 seconds, you know, he starts to try and get up and the cops are going belly on the ground. It's like, you've got to restrain yourself, you know, as a black man being, um, apprehended by police, like self-control is survival. And it requires this, like, superhuman, profoundly unreasonable, profoundly unfair degree of self-control, which Terry is, like, the one person who actually does have that because of his discipline and training.

But he's still punished.

Totally.

Regardless.

Totally.

And he runs through all his options until he's like, now I've just got to fuck you guys all up because self-restraint does not serve me.

But he still doesn't kill anyone.

Yeah. I mean, he maims a few people.

Yeah, that's true.

But what is interesting is it's such a contrast to the police, right? They shoot in order to exert control. He breaks arms. Right. Like he, he, he does the minimum amount of violence necessary in order to take control of the situation. They let it escalate it. And, and coming back to Kim thing, we may cut this from the video, but when I've taught screenwriting before, and I talk about given circumstances, my now wife, uh, she enjoys watching police interrogation videos because she is a psychologist. And there's this video that I now use in screenwriting class, which is comparing two innocent people being interrogated by the cops. One is black, one is white. The emotional control that the black man constantly exerts is incredible in contrast to the white guy who's like, I didn't fucking do that. Both innocent, right? It's just that you can tell, for me, and look, I obviously have incredible white privilege and male white privilege here, but it does remind you of Terry, that you can see this guy going, having to calmly explain to this cop all the facts. He ended up getting awarded a huge amount of sum for wrongful arrest, right? But it's just such a striking difference in given circumstances, changing the kind of tactics that people- I'm doing it in very clinical terms rather than sociopolitical ones, but the kind of tactics that people have to choose, right? And the thing is, in this story, yeah, their transgression, the monster they have woken is that they've got someone who actually is capable of defeating them, right? Or, you know, I think the ending is interesting because on this watch, right, they don't spend a lot of time doing it, but I think when Chief Sandy shoots, quote-unquote, Serpico, who...

Ed.

Ed, yeah. Ed? Yeah.

Right, from the office. Yeah.

Yes, right. Great casting. when he shoots him you can see everyone except like the other really really bad cop all be a little bit like what the fuck right because they realize that he is willing to kill other kill them in order to get what they want so i think they kind of turn against him out of self-preservation more than they are protecting terry right and.

My view of the escort was it was more to escort ed to hospital then.

Yeah.

And I totally agree with you, Kim, in that they're trying to redeem some of these very corrupt cops who've done heinous things. But I also agree that they have gone great lengths in the storytelling to say that these cops are in a situation where, corruption is the only way they can exist in terms of protecting their community and the line that gets drawn for them at the end is some of these cops are okay with that they've got different lines of corruption that they're willing to pass and they're they're all individually confronted with that you know the.

Slumber in rebel ridge is so interesting to me precisely because of that because you've got like you've got kind of narrative questions of like is summer going to be okay is fucking roy from the office gonna be okay is he gonna pull through um.

Oh i'm like terry's gonna be in jail for the rest of his life it doesn't matter he's got the dash cam tied to some cops are gonna come to take that dash cam off him and smash it to pieces and then he will yeah yeah he's.

Broken so many laws that like there's no way he's getting out of this um And just more widely, the sociopolitical, economic legislation that allows not only for civil forfeiture, but allowed this small town to get so unsupported by state and federal governments. It's like the fact that the water isn't safe to drink here. The horror, the capital H horror of like small town America in that regard, Terry's actions throughout have shone a light on it, but have not meaningfully banished that horror, the systemic kind of broader one.

Yeah. I mean, the fact is they can't, they're such a small town that they can only afford a certain level of judiciary and they're exploiting that level of judiciary that they can only do misdemeanors. And that means that they can hold people for a certain amount of time without bail or trial and all those kind of things. Like, yeah, it was in both my watches, the bit where they are talking to the judge was actually the bit where it dipped for me, where they were like trying to open up the conspiracy a bit more broadly beyond these individual cops being cunts.

It didn't dim for me for that reason. It's that whole logic of, oh, you know, trials are really expensive. It's just going to be easier if everyone that's guilty is just... I was going to say export it, you know, is like sent to a foreign country. That will just make it all a bit easier. It's that kind of...

To timestamp this podcast recording, we just had a very expensive trial of mushroom murdering lady, and we don't yet know what the verdict is.

Very prejudiced terminology there, mushroom murdering.

Oh, absolutely.

Wow.

She fucking did it.

Defamation on Drop Zero.

I mean, I also, I also think she's going to be found not guilty because it's really hard to prove someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I think she's going to successfully get away with murdering three people.

I'll murder or manslaughter. And that's always the question.

Poisoning is not manslaughter that has intent.

It's a little oopsie. It's mushrooms.

Yeah, Chaz. Just don't cook me beef Wellington, please.

Please cook me beef Wellington.

So, to wrap this up, I think that discussion before we go to meeting the parents, which I also think is going to bring some new things, I think part of the way it's able to structure itself is having a good, strong mystery to solve that slowly escalates and that does have power. Picking an antagonist that is kind of personified in a character like Chief Sandy, but the actual horror is the larger systemic thing that allows the police force to be corrupt. And they are, I mean, this is why corrupt gods are such great villains in fiction, is because they have access to so much power. Right. And they've got that power in there and you kind of see it, the omens in a lot of particular ways. But I do think it is really interesting for me flipping it around and looking at films like this where you want your hero to... To be have this sense of power and i wouldn't be surprised you know if taken has this level of there is tunes for taken right you know obviously they transgress by taking his daughter but the omens where he shows it and all that kind of stuff i do think these kinds of action films may have that right and i do think there is a connection to horror and action films for that reason it's about really huge forces and i made my joke about those canon films but um they absolutely do that i don't think it's very good but avenging force which is like 1985 is about a black man standing for mayor and a group of people in a conspiracy kill him for having the audacity to. Be a black man standing for mayor but they actually fuck up and kill his child his eight-year-old child and then um it kind of escalates for there and he ends up being killed anyway and it's got the white savior annoying but it actually ends with them going there's five members of this secret society trying to you know um but i've only killed four and he looks at this the head of the cia unit he's like i wonder who the fifth is and then you just kind of they have this moment and he walks away and it's got slumber which is like the horror of that film is that kind of um uh thinking is pervasive in american institute is literally institutionalized and each of the the villains this is a shitty z-grade action movie but they kind of all connected to different parts of american institutions and that's what it gives it this sense of overwhelming power before.

Um we move on to meet the parents i realized why the beat of summer getting drugged again doesn't hit for me and i realized that it's like that jeremy solnia does such a good job of like ramping up escalating the level of and like degree of depravity um that the cops in particular are like um capable of like this uh the omens into manifestation is like oh shit there this is how deep it goes this is how like bad it will it it gets um and the moment where they, walk into a a woman's house drug her she awakes and realizes what's happened calls the police realizes they're the ones who did it um is so impactful that like for them to, do it again, but give her a bit more of the drug, um, in the back of a car feels like a de-escalation rather than like a deepening of, of that depravity.

Yeah.

Um, plus it's, yeah, I guess I repeat beat.

Yeah. As you say, it makes her a damn, it's literally depriving her of agency.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, until she, until she gets the moment where the guy that she's able to push the guy that drugged her.

Which felt a little cheat to me, but yeah.

Still enjoyed it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm not saying it couldn't have been better, but I enjoyed it.

Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like, I agree. I kind of can forgive it because, oh man. To be honest, it is a great horror sequence when she wakes up and the guy's creeping her, creeping around.

Totally.

Great, pure horror. So it could be sore, right?

It's that sense that, yeah, the power extends so deeply. It's so pervasive and the corruption is so pervasive that they seem to have total impunity if it were not for Terry taking justice into his own hands.

Speaking of taking justice into his own hands, meet the parents.

Meet the parents.

Pam is the one Greg wants to marry. Just relax, honey. I love you. But before he can pop the question, he'll have to meet... Hi, Daddy! ...the parents. What did you drive there for? Oh, yeah. It's an interesting color. You pick it? Oh, no. Now the Hurst guy picked it. Why? Well, they say geniuses picked it. But you didn't pick it. Be nice to this one, okay? Okay, I'll try. Now, he will enter their home. You know, Greg's in medicine, too, Larry. Oh, really? What field? Uh, nursing. Not a lot of men in your profession, are there, Greg? And earn his way. You want to hear a story? I milked a cat once. A cat? Into the family. You know, just... I had no idea you could milk a cat. Oh, yeah, you can milk anything with nipples. I have nipples, Greg. Could you milk me? Dad. At least that was the plan. Hey, it's Brad LeBatis. I just feel like this is not going well at all. We're getting creeped, people. Go off Lawrence Nightingale over here and play a little defense. Yeah! I don't know what it is, but there's just something about it that's a little off. It's an antique polygraph machine. Why don't you try that on? That's okay. Oh, come on, we'll have some fun. Greg, my father was never in the rare flower business. Don't worry, you'll enjoy this. Have you ever watched pornographic videos? No. Relax, relax, the needles are jumping. He was in the CIA for 34 years. Great, yeah, I was scared of your dad back when I thought he was a florist. I'm a patient man. That's what 19 months of a Vietnamese prison camp will do to you. But I will be watching you, studying your every move. And I will bring you down, baby. I will bring you down to Chinatown.

It really feels like a gear shift.

No, but it's so good. I was really glad that our patrons voted comedy.

Yeah, great.

Because I really wanted to, like, the overlap between horror and thriller, I think they're, from an analytical conceptual purpose, they're almost identical. You're just wanting the audience to feel different things. Like, the... What you're putting the protagonist or the characters through is often very similar it's just do you want the audience to feel like thrilled or exhilarated or do you want them to feel.

Like repulsed and scared i found myself writing a horror and a farce uh play um and i was struck by how similar they were that like no one in a farce is having fun no and in fact you're being incredibly cruel to them it's just that like rather than being positioned with from the perspective of the people trapped in the sword trap or whatever it is um like horror i think is unique in genres that you like the audience feels the same thing the characters are feeling it's like mirrored as opposed to laughing at them and there's that kind of difference in um which is.

Why i find cringe comedy so hard.

Yeah i can totally i.

Can handle people being brutally murdered but an awkward.

Social situation i'm.

Like i have to pause this and recover emotionally because.

The way ben stiller kisses his future mother-in-law the first time just yeah you just want to die, uh okay yeah so i i was really when i was thinking about tombs and how tombs might be applied to genres outside of horrors and thrillers um i was really keen to dig into a um a comedy uh that still like uses that structure yeah i guess a real quick recap is um ben stiller plays greg Fokker, who has the audacity to be a gentle and kind male nurse, also Jewish, and his transgression is being down bad for his wife, for his girlfriend, Pam. Um, he wants to propose to Pam. She's the one for him. He's so in love with her, but he learns that not only is Pam's sister just getting engaged, that Pam's sister's, uh, fiance did, did it the right way, quote unquote, and asked her father's permission. Very kind of traditional father. So he thinks, okay, I'm going to hold off proposing to Pam and I'm going to go up for the weekend with Pam to see her parents for the first time ask her father's permission and um do it the right way but Greg is kind of almost like cosmically cursed uh and everything that could go wrong does go wrong uh he makes a complete ass of himself like multiple times in front of um Robert De Niro who plays Jack the father um and it doesn't help that Jack just hates his guts No one has ever been good enough for Pam. And the cherry on top, the kind of manifestation moment is Jack... Was in the cia for 34 years um and as a criminal profiler or something um and so he's like a human lie detector and he's on to greg um and so yeah it's just this like one disaster after another that gets to the point where the entire family including pam have turned against greg but when greg tries to fly back back home uh jack has a change of heart which we can talk about they have a classic kind of interrogation scene and then jack kind of proposes to greg of will you be my son-in-law giving him his blessing because i.

Actually quite like that beat because it's such an inversion instead of the the lover running to the airport to meet the person.

That they've seen away it's.

Actually the future father-in-law doing it so they kind of playing with the trope and so they have to kind of end it with the will you be my son.

Yeah yeah okay.

My controversial opinion to start with is i actually think the transgression is when greg lies to in terms of the immediate effect of why he he awakens the horror right and the moral lesson of this film because I think this film is actually, even though we're doing it last, it's actually weirdly the most clear in all of them. I agree that it is connected. He has the audacity to be, all that stuff is thematically important, but the one that kind of drives a lot of the comedy is he instinctively lies to impress his future father-in-law about the car and then not liking the cat.

Jake's a strictly house cat. You can't let him outside because he also lacks outdoor survival skills. That's just one of those things, isn't it, sweetheart? I don't think Greg will be playing with Jinxie too much. He hates kids. Pam, I don't hate cats. I don't, I don't hate cats. I just happen to be more of a dog lover. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's okay if you hate cats, Greg. No, I don't. I don't hate cats at all. That's okay. Just be honest about it.

Most of the comedy comes from the fact that he is so desperate to impress, he can't be himself. Yeah. And I actually go, it's interesting. I mean, they do mock him for being a male nurse. Um a bit but there's this like robert de niro gives a great performance in this there's layers to that like there's part of it where he's like he's a male voice but you can kind of like when he's kind of like snaps into being really strong about it he seems to give i have a little bit more respect yeah for it jack.

Doesn't laugh at uh greg when it's revealed that greg's birth name is Gaylord and he also has like a beat that I really forgot is when they first sit down to dinner Jack reads out a poem that he's written about his uh deceased mom um and uh and it's and he cried I'm.

Still not happy with it as soon as it's ready then I am going to glaze it onto a plate and put it next to the urn. Yes. It's very special. My Mother by Jack Burns. You gave me life, you gave me milk, you gave me courage. Your name was Angela, the angel from heaven. But you were also an angel of God. And he needed you, too. Selfishly, I tried to keep you here, while the cancer ate away your organs, like an unstoppable rebel force. But I couldn't save you, and I shall see your face. Nevermore. Nevermore. Nevermore. Until we meet in heaven. Daddy that's beautiful.

I think i went into the film expecting it to be like the transgressions are all around toxic masculinity and like kind of expectations of men and i think that's all there but i think you're right stew that narratively it's like a man who lies because he's so desperate to uh um appease and and uh kind of impress his parents or future parents-in-law and a human lie detector being your father-in-law.

But Stu, I couldn't agree with you more because like I said earlier, I was surprised at how late Jack's being a human lie detector is revealed. So all the tension in the first act is without the audience, if they're watching it for the first time, knowing that Jack knows that Greg is lying to him, right? We are just cringing because we know Greg is lying and we can see Greg is making things worse for himself than if he would just have the confidence in himself to just be himself unapologetically.

Which we know he's capable of because I think in the era like the whole thing about him being a male nurse is he's actually confident in that decision.

You know Greg's in medicine too Larry. Oh really? What feelin'? Nursing. No really, what feelin'? Nursing. Hey, why don't I get you a chair, Greg? Thank you. Thanks. So, you didn't want to go for the MD? No, I actually thought about becoming a doctor, but I decided it wasn't for me. Oh, thanks. Just as well. Boards are killer. Actually, Greg aced his MCATs. You serious? No, I did okay. Oh, he did more than okay, trust me. Why did you take the test if you weren't planning on going to med school? Well, I wanted to keep my options open, but in the end, nursing was just a better fit for me. It gives you the freedom to work in several different areas of medicine. Plus, I can focus 100% on patient care as opposed to being a doctor where you have to deal with the bureaucracy. Oh, wasn't your friend Andy supposed to be here by now? Yeah.

I mean, the thing that turns Jack around is that Greg had the choice to be a doctor and chose not to. Like, it wasn't that he couldn't become a doctor, couldn't afford to become a doctor, wasn't smart enough or anything like that. He actively chose to be a nurse over being a doctor. And it's learning that that ultimately persuades, I think, well, it ties in with Jack's moment of choosing to go running after him.

I, coming back to the CIA thing, you say it's late, I'm scanning through it. It's basically at 38 minutes.

It's the first act turning point.

Yeah, it's a late turning point. The inciting incident is the transgression. So, I do think this one is probably more aligned with Turning Points because it's that era, right? We've got a good hook. We go into it. We've got the inciting incident is meeting the parents. Is it? Yeah.

I mean, to me, the actual full manifestation is when they're having their suits fitted and Jack's like convinced that he's smoking pot and he says to Greg.

I'm watching you and I'll take you down.

And that's the full manifestation of, of evil. But, but the, the whole first act is sustained by, purely by uh greg's uh like getting caught on escalating lie after escalating lie there's the lie about the car there's the lie about growing up on a farm there's the lie about milking cats, i mean it's just it's it's wonderful and that is all greg and kim you said greg was cosmically unlucky but i've actually written out in the manifestation all the things that happen to greg that that go wrong like the escalation of the shit that goes wrong is actually all directly caused by greg's choices tied.

To yeah yeah.

If i can give some examples right it's not revealed at the time it's revealed in the post-credit sting but greg flushes the toilet that he's been told not to flush that floods the septic tank and floods where the wedding is going to be with shit.

Nice stench. You're really on a roll there, bud. Biting, Denny. Now you listen to me. In 20 hours, I'm having a wedding here, so I need my cesspool pump now. Not tomorrow, now. Dad, what's going on? Oh, my God. What's that smell? That smell, Bob, is our shit. Farker flushed the toilet in the den so the septic tank is overflowing. Jack, I told you, it wasn't me. It was Jinx. Farker, I'm not going to tell you again. Jinx cannot flush the toilet. He's a cat, for Christ's sakes. The animal doesn't even have thumbs, Farker.

Right, Greg does that. And then he lies about not doing that. It's only revealed later that he was lying, but it is in line with his character. Greg, on the phone to the airport, lets the cat out, right? Ushers him out. He chose to do that. Greg tries to get the cat back in, climbing up onto the roof, where he decides to smoke a cigarette, which he then tosses away casually, setting on fire the gutter, which he then kicks, which then breaks the power cord, which sets the altar on fire. And Greg, while he is being pushed by Jack's view of him at the volleyball, the water volleyball game, Greg is trying to impress Jack by playing aggressively.

Here's what we got to do. We're getting cream, people. Lawrence Nightingale over here, play a little defense. Larry, I missed one shot. That was a big shot. Mark, keep floating where you are. You're doing great. Kenny, take the deep shots. Greg, nobody's expecting much out of you, so if I set you up with the ball, you think you can jump up and spike it? No. Yeah, that has to be pretty high, but yeah. I bet you would, Panama Red.

But it's still Greg who spikes the ball into the bride's face. So all these things that go wrong are arising out of Greg's inability to just be comfortable in his own skin.

Yeah.

So here's my interesting question that that prompted. and Kim, while you're doing this thinking face, this gives you time to think. You can slumber for a little bit. When we went into this, we were like, jack is the monster right but what is jack's power right like what is the extent of his power, is you know i think you know we saw renick's power and then ultimately renick not only can fly and convert people he kind of builds a whole army the the corruption of the police force is systemic and they can follow you and break into it what power does jack have other than being a human lie detector and how does it escalate i actually think this may be one of those horror movies if you were to rewrite this as a horror movie it's like a jekyll and high kind of story the monster, is actually greg's kind of lack of confidence the omens are that escalating the manifestation, of it is is it's all kind of a little bit more internal because the midpoint not saying the midpoint should be the manifestation, but it is the point when we see the, um, chestburster, it's meeting the Owen Wilson character, the ex-boyfriend who's really rich, all the things, you know, it's all, all Greg's insecurities.

Handle an afternoon with your ex-fiance. Okay, thank you. Now for the floor that you're walking on, I chose this Bolivian Wormwood, I think works well in here. I have the Viking range here and the twin sub-Zs. Yeah, they open up right there oh oh i get like hidden yeah kind of blend in great are you a homeowner greg no no i rent oh so things are going real real well for you aren't they at newberg right kevin things have been going so great lately yeah i got in early on some wireless ipos and stuff just skyrocketed from there wow what about you greg what line of work are you in i'm in health care yeah so you You know what I'm talking about. There are a lot of Benjamins being made right now with the biotech staff. I don't have to tell you that. How's your portfolio? I'd say strong. Quite strong.

That said, I think the mystery to be solved, what he's trying to solve here is how do I win over Jack?

Yeah.

And that's banish this insecurity, right?

I mean, you ask what power Jack has. Jack has the power of approval over Pam. That when we first meet Jack, they go to great lengths to show how much Pam loves and worships her dad, and they have that very sickeningly cutesy greeting. So Greg is aware that Jack holds that power, the power to the one thing that he wants, on top of being a conservative human lie detector.

Yeah, it's just interesting because, as you say, these are Greg's choices trying to win over Jack. Jack it's just curious that jack isn't pushing like how much is this jack's doing versus greg's insecurity.

In reading and like i went on reddit to kind of look at like people's takes on this as well and there was one really popular post that was saying that pam set greg up at every point to fail that like i i don't disagree with anything you said chas like it is like the the active like an accident but then the active decision to try and cover it up um that just gets him in deeper and deeper shit but also like in in the very first meeting with your boyfriend and your parents to say that your boyfriend doesn't like cats when it's like when your dad's pet is the most cat is the most treasured thing it it is like kind of uh creating, like unnecessary drama that Greg then stumbles into.

I mean, at the very beginning, Pam tells him not to lie about them living together.

Oh, and then we're not living together. I thought you said you told them. Well...

And she knows that he's a lie detector test.

Yeah.

She says to lie, not to not lie. She says to lie.

Yeah, that's what I'm sorry. That's what I meant. That, you know, in terms of Kim's point that Pam setting him up, she knows her father's a human lie detector test five minutes, five seconds before she beats him is like, lie to him.

Yeah. It's wild. I don't think ultimately I agree with that reading, but what I find fascinating about the yeah the like banishment beat in this is like as we discussed earlier greg is the one who's banished he's literally like like sent off to to the airport and kind of like symbolically banished from the family and it's really unclear whether uh greg and pam are going to make it through this but then it's the two women uh jack's wife and daughter um who like pam says you know i love you dad but you can be a real asshole sometimes and dina says you only liked you know owen wilson pam's ex once they once it was clear they weren't going to get back together once they've broken up uh no one's ever been good enough for pam in your eyes and if you you know you you basically kind of like ruined this relationship for her and you're going to keep doing that and that's the kind of Like, I guess like what I'm arguing for is that both men, both Greg and Jack have some kind of demon to banish in themselves.

Absolutely. I was going to say, I feel Jack more successfully banishes it. Like, I don't feel that Greg has overcome his self-esteem and feels truly of value at the end.

I mean, the fact that there's a fourth or fifth movie coming along is like, oh God, there's more, there's more anxiety to excavate.

So, just to tap onto your banishment thing, Kim, obviously, I'm like, yeah, okay, it's pretty obvious that the banishment is him being sent to the airport, but when I was watching it, and I was thinking through this solve-save, he's trying to survive the weekend and save his relationship, and what he's trying to solve is what do I need to do to appease the monster? And that, the conclusion he comes to is rescue the cat. And so I think that is an attempt to banish the monster is to rescue the cat and lie, lie for it. Because those who haven't seen it for a while, uh, GC, same name as Chaz's dog. Um, clearly that was an homage, Chaz.

You just love Meet the Parents.

Yeah.

Jinx, he is let out, and he sees a Himalayan cat that looks very similar at the pound, and is like, I'm going to get this. Right?

And spray paint its tail.

Rough.

So I can be the hero, and it's played as a reveal that he's found the cat, decided to do this cat, and then he keeps on looking for it. Right? And then the ruse is discovered.

Wow.

And what's cool about it is that it is actually the inversion of the low point, I interpreted that as the, in this terminology that like, oh, he's got the solve. He's worked out how to banish the monster, but it fails. It's the, you can't actually banish the ghost. I think woman in black kind of does the similar thing that you think they've solved the woman in black. No, she's back. Right. And to me, that's how I interpreted it, that he's trying to appease Jack. But as I said, I think what, you know, as I came to the conclusion, I'm like, I'm not even sure that Jack is the antagonist any more than it is his insecurity.

Absolutely. I think they're both antagonists. It's just one force increases, follows Tombs perhaps a bit more than the other. Like, there are omens, you know, Jack's got those creepy nanny cams, surveillance cams all over the house and is interrogating Greg at various points about his drug habits and things like that.

You know, the whole drug thing? No, I don't know. Why don't you tell me? Some people uh think that to puff the magic dragon means they're really to um to smoke uh smoke a marijuana cigarette, puffs is just the name of the boy's magical dragon right, are you a pothead fucker no no what no no no no no jack no i'm i'm not i i pass on grass all the time i mean not all the time yes or no no yes no.

So there's definitely some omens in that first section before it's revealed that he is a human lie detector and then it's.

Also kind of like red herring omens that i forgot about this whole thread but it's like when they, We see, and actually not from Greg's point of view, like Robert De Niro pour some cocktail mix down the sink and then lie to the family that they're out of that cocktail mix so that he can go to the shock. He then doesn't buy that cocktail mix greg catches him out on that and sees him talking to some skeezy guy.

In the.

Car park and it all has a very innocuous revelation that it's about uh pam's sister and sister um and brother-in-law money for a um vacation for them but it it feels like that's going to be some cia spy stuff to.

Both greg.

And us and.

I quite.

Liked the uh i guess it suits the kind of comedy of it all that.

It feels.

Like it's almost going to be a different genre of movie and then it's like no yoink.

It's uh it's still a comedy guys it's it's a family comedy yeah yeah i mean definitely they they you know greg is an antagonist to to jack he's coming to not only to take his palm away but is systematically destroying his house one piece at a time um and and jack is an antagonist to greg and that he holds pam's heart and pam ultimately, learns to choose greg over her father's against her father's approval like she calls greg trying to reunite with him even though he's greg's been tried to banish jack and ultimately as he says to has ended up banished jack if if you look at the story as jack being the protagonist he has successfully banished greg at that point but i would uh kim you had this amazing observation about like the portrayals of masculinity owen wilson is another manifestation of greg's insecurity yeah and it's because pam and continually refers to just their their sexual chemistry that she had with owen wilson but owen wilson is not like, a buff guy he's uh he's not i don't know some people may find him pretty i wouldn't even say he's a pretty boy but he's not like he's he's woodworking and he's gentle and like uh you're only.

Saying that because he's in a very nice knit.

Yes exactly but he does talk about stocks and it's weird that he.

Has all these photos of pam like.

Framed around his house but.

He is like surprisingly I really thought they were going to do some reveal that he's actually a piece of shit and.

Pan realizes that.

And they don't I think.

It's way more sophisticated and in fact they have a moment where they feel sorry for Kevin.

Oh poor Kevin looks lonely, maybe I should ask him to dance what do you think sure I bet he could, whittle a private little dance floor for the two of you I'm serious I saw some beach wood outside it's very handy He's an extremely handy and crafty craftsman. I shouldn't paint him with that brush, but come on, seriously, seriously.

So, I think all of these things, Jack and Kevin and all the shit that goes wrong, we can, it all, to my mind, ties more uniformly back to the source of antagonism being Greg's self-esteem and need to please and impress Jack and not feeling that he can do that by being himself. I think everything in the film kind of leads back and reinforces that. And in that way, it's more simple than Rebel Ridge or Sinners that has clear contrasting and conflicting sources of antagonism. This has multiple sources of antagonism, but they're all aligned in what they're trying to do.

And interestingly, coming back to the solve thing, you know, just using that as a tool to think about these things, he's trying to solve the wrong problem, right? Like, what he is trying to do, or at least he's trying to use the wrong tactic, which is like, how do I win over it? My solution is to try and lie to him and, you know, rescue the cat. And all he needed to do was kind of be honest, right? And it's only when he, and that's why I think the interrogation scene works so well, is because once he starts being honest, you can kind of feel that they're, you can kind of see it in Ben Stiller's performance. He's seen some more relaxed you can see him and jack kind of get a respect for each other.

Listen fucker i'm not going to tell anybody anything until you answer some questions unless you want to spend the next couple of years of your life in prison you better god damn well tell me the truth no more lies you understand no more lies did you do this just answer the question did you have me taken off in that airplane just answer the question put your hands over there that's it sick you know that, Is your name Gaylord Falker, yes or no? Yes. Are you a male nurse? Yes. Are you a pothead? No. Have you ever smoked pot? Yes. Did you spray paint the tail of a cat to pass him off as Mr. Jinx? Yes. And did you do that because you desperately were seeking my approval? Yes. Because you love my daughter Pam? Yes. Do you want to marry her? Do you want to marry her? I did until i met you.

Yeah it's like what they're saying is there's like there's never been more conflict between them he says like i i love pam and i wanted to marry her until i met you like that's such a slap in the face but it's like the the the truth really pierces through because it's been lying the whole movie and it's actually like the most intimate the the two men have been, emotionally and physically.

Yeah, I mean, they're literally holding- he's holding his wrists.

It's really weirdly beautiful.

Yeah. This film is way better than I remembered it being.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't remember it being bad, but I remembered it feeling trope-y and- almost 20 years later it actually doesn't feel tropey at all.

Yeah i was i was pleasantly surprised that um yeah how kind of like subversive it is in in certain ways like robert de niro loving his cat and crying over his mom and you know touching greg's wrists in this really like in a way that like a really shitty comedy could have like wrapped up as homoerotic or something it just isn't uh yeah um what i realized as well in terms of this masculinity stuff like i was thinking about the song that starts the movie it's the randy newman song uh and it the lyrics are like show me a man who's gentle and kind and i'll show you a loser and then what is it now show me a man who takes what he wants oh how exciting um but i realized that like songs play a big part in all three movies that at the beginning of rebel ridge the song that is listening to the lyrics are like because in my dreams it's always there the evil face that twists my mind and brings me to despair and that is like this kind of tombs-esque omnipresent evil um and then in sinners the like song that sammy writes is like i lied to you like that's his sin defying his papa the truth hurts so i lied to you.

That song from rebel ridge's iron millions the number of the beast.

Yeah yeah yeah totally um it's like it's uh yeah it's i think they like chose it extremely well.

Also, Iron Madden is great to exercise too, those pumping 16. But yeah, you're right. Music is really important. I'm not saying that we should use music, but it does connect to the omen stuff and the energy and the transcendental kind of moments.

Yeah. Particularly when it's like, you know, I know in Rebel Ridge it's diegetic, but like, I guess it kind of functions in a non-diegetic way as well. We kind of realize that it's diegetic. But yeah, there's this sense that like, it's a signal for the audience, but not necessarily for the characters. It's functioning that way.

Now do we keeping us on meet the parents i'm coming back to the structural stuff because that's kind of the things that we've been looking at yeah so seeing the transgression or the beginning of the transgression sequence i'm breaking it down in real time i could be wrong is like him beginning to lie what are we seeing if we are arguing and i'm just and the thing is it doesn't have to be precise this is just tools but it's like if i'm a comedy writer interested in implying tombs to my work and i want to use it you know we've got the practical thing from rebel ridge right um we've got the the the tombs from the a and the b plot line in sinners right there's two forms of transgressions and the way they intersect and what we're looking at here that meet the, tombs is kind of connected for the character floor right totally the transgression is because Because clearly at the beginning of the film, he does think he's worthy. Well, actually, does he think he is worthy of Pam?

Yeah. I was going to say, I think that the very first transgression is him choosing not to propose when he hears that the right thing to do is seek the father's approval. Greg at the end of the movie doesn't need Jack's approval anymore. And at the beginning of the film, if he just said, I love you, I'm worthy of you, I will impress your father, please marry me, then none of the rest of it would have played out because he would have seen himself as worthy of her and not needing her father's approval. I'm not saying it's the right way to go. I'm not saying like it might've been a dick move if it was really important to her for him to go and talk to Jack. So I'm not saying right or wrong, but in terms of the sources of antagonism. I think the first transgression is him bailing out of the proposal, the elaborate proposal.

I really like that reading because I think like throughout the movie, when he starts explaining to the table of Pam's family why he chose nursing, he's got this really reasoned, intelligent explanation and they're just not listening to him. Like there's nothing wrong with him and actually a lot of you know he he gets a pot plant for jack as a gift and it's this rare orchid because he thinks jack's a florist what a lovely thoughtful gift like he's actually like there's nothing quote-unquote wrong with him except for this fatal flaw of that you know he feels the need to lie because he doesn't believe his worthy so.

Where do we think if we even think it matters, the transition from omens to manifestations come from. If we're using, weirdly, alien, you know, omens are all the creepy shit on the shit, the face hugger, the quarantine, and then the transition is when the omens stop, when the chestburster appears, and then that creates the manifestations from, as the baby xenophobic grows into the full Xenomorph and then the banishment sequences go, trying to kill it, realizing we just got to bail. Where do we see those kind of omens grow and how they connect to it? Like, how do I build, use this to help build the Antigonism so it feels like it's getting bigger and bigger? Is there any, does this even help us here?

I don't know if you can, if I would be able to, if this is a retrospective tool or if it would actually help me generate. But I actually think as soon as he arrives at the house, that is the omen star. As soon as he meets Jack, like Jack challenges him about the color of the car. He doesn't know the plant at all. Like that's an omen of what's happening that he's failed to be impressed despite Greg going to these great lengths. There's the, like I mentioned, the nanny cam omen. And then I think there's also the omens of them asking Greg to say grace, even though he's Jewish. Like, they are testing him and putting him under pressure. Now, he's reacting to that poorly, but they are doing those things.

I think the poor reaction is key here. I think cringe comedy trades on us having a better... Knowledge of social cues and social mores than the protagonist in this situation that like in so many of these instances at least we'd like to think we'd handle it better that like it's not necessarily an easy situation he's being thrown into but like he doesn't have to talk about milking a cat's teats at the dinner table like that uh there are all of these things that could easily have been avoided if had he just played by social rules yeah um and so i think a lot of these omens b2b like if we're kind of trying to apply it to comedy is like what the the like ha-ha moments uh ruptures and like you know moments where greg's behavior deviates from what we think would be like this day going smoothly yeah so.

The omens would be whatever ever in terms of building escalation it's like how will the omens of what's to come of the manifestation of jack how are they going to prompt even at this early stage before he's manifested prompt greg's poor reactions i mean the the sequence where i had forgotten that the lie detector sequence in the hidden room that at that point greg still doesn't know that jack works for the cia at that point in time he still thinks he's a florist.

Who.

Just has a creepy hidden room and a lie detector test. I mean, there's the photos of him with Clinton and other stuff. But he still hasn't been told that Jack is a CIA spy at that point, which I'd forgotten. I thought he was across it by that point in my memory.

I'll wrap this up into, because this is kind of moving us into wrap-up stage, but I am suddenly, like, even though I argued that rescuing the cat is kind of the banishment, If we are thinking about this as about his insecurity, that is the ultimate manifestation of his insecurity.

Yeah.

Right. It's him taking a cat and painting its tail and trying to pass it off.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You spray-painted his tail to make him look like Jinxie, didn't you, Farker? Greg, what's he talking about? Hank McAtee called me a couple of hours ago and told me he found Jinxie. He took his collar and put it on an imposter, then he spray-painted his tail, and then he tried to beat us back here so that he could get rid of the evidence. Oh, no. Please tell me that's not true, Greg. It was just a temporary solution until I could find the real Jinx. How could you do something like that i'm sorry what are you gonna tell me next that you said kevin's ultra on fire oh my god well it wasn't intentional i was i was chasing jinx up onto the roof i had a smoke and i i think i might have lit something that i don't know what happened he put so much goddamn lacquer on that thing it was an accident waiting to happen this is very disappointing Greg get out of my house fucker and take your friend with you so you lied to me about everything huh Greg you lied about the cat about the fire about the mcats didn't lie about the mcats come on Pam don't you see what's happening here your dad has totally turned you against me I didn't turn her against you Greg you did that to yourself.

To me, that's still him being reactive to Jack's rules, to Jack's, like, lore, I guess, you know, that he's still desperately, like, he's playing tactics and he becomes more forthright instead of just, like, accepting these embarrassing trunks to play volleyball in or whatever netball.

I forgot how cut Ben Stiller was.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, with that body, I wouldn't be worried. Um but yeah like that the car chase home is still like a desperate attempt to cover up it's still like um yeah to me that's him surviving the monster like attempting to survive um and and solve but uh but not not progressing to that banishment piece i.

Know i just what i what i I actually think this film, in the manifestation sequence, what it does so well, I think, is it, I've already laid out all the beats of the escalation of things going horribly wrong, but it is all prompted by Greg making a bad decision based on his insecurity.

What do you see then as the manifestation sequence?

I would say, I think, you know, Kim and I mentioned it before, I think it's the point when they're in the suit fitting.

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, he goes to the suit fitting, and then he meets Kevin Owen Wilson's character.

And so that's the- The Pam also hasn't told him about the best man going back to your Reddit set.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

The Reddit's right.

I mean, it's one of those things. There was a Letterboxd review, which was like, these people are all really fucking horrible to Greg. And I'm like, this is true.

It's not untrue, yeah.

And then someone else is like, Greg has done a lot of dumb shit.

Yeah. Both things can be true.

Yeah.

Right? Like, they could have- the film would not have happened if they were not horrible to him. And- Or if he were to have loved himself more and not reacted poorly to being treated poorly.

So, to keep us in the mothership sci-fi horror thing, it's like this binary star that's kind of being pulled into each other, which is you've got Jack as the monster, right? And there's T-O-M-B-S for that. But there's also Greg's insecurity is also a monster. And you've got those two scenes work so well back to back because it's Jack literally standing over him going, I've got my eyes on you. And then we meet Kevin, who is the literal manifestation of Jack's insecurity because he kind of has got all this wealth and power and photos of Kim and they've got this secret love language and all that stuff. And so maybe that's part of the juice of this story is it is also running A and B plot lines through this twin source of antagonism here. And that's why I'm struggling to unpick it because they actually just work so well together. I mean, this film is actually a remake. I didn't even know that until I read about it.

Yeah.

It's a remake of some indie film that no one really saw.

But from like six years prior. Oh, wow. It's a Moana animated to Moana. It's like an even faster turner.

So as an end of the whole thing, we like to wrap up with key learnings. Kim, have you learned anything? From this exercise.

I think that I really love this idea of you can kind of reverse terms and like put yourself in the protagonist point of view and what is the horror to them? Put yourself in the antagonist point of view, what's the horror to them? And also I really love the idea of, I think my reading of Meet the Parents was very much like the book. The horror is jack and more generally toxic masculinity but i really like on a narrative level the lying and the lie detector being like the diametrically opposed forces is so much cleaner and more tangible um this notion of like imagining a flaw within your main character that they have to overcome as the horror that like awakens within them due to circumstance um how like generates these omens manifests in certain ways and needs to be banished i won't speak at length about it but i watched k-pop demon hunters recently and the demons in that movie become a metaphor for the main character's shame and actually the one of the antagonists shame as well and whilst i thought that the law and the emotional things weren't aligned particularly well in the final 10 minutes they did a really good job of going like these literal demons that we need to banish are like the embodiment of this shame that we need to like kind of purge from ourselves and move forward kind of confident and yeah i think that's really helpful stew.

Yeah i I, we didn't go fully into depth, the onset discovery confirmation confrontation structure. I do think that's really useful as a tool that you can kind of almost use to check your work in a way.

Yeah.

Because I think it's audience experience, but I do think it applies to meet the parents, right? But you've kind of go from discovery, confirmation ends up being the second act. And we're looking for tools to help escalate the antagonism. I mean, I think the ways that we started realizing that there was like practical structures and that the A line and the B line follows this stuff helps solve that problem, right? I can see myself boarding a story or perhaps us together, Chaz, and maybe us and you, Kim, like where you go tombs for this character, tombs for this character, tombs for this character. Because I wouldn't be surprised with Sinners if you start to think of, if we would go even more in depth, you'd realize there's transgressions for each character that's kind of experienced by each character in different ways. And I think that's really useful. And I actually like that. It's like, even though I've been trying to push for precise, I like the imprecision because it's just ways of going, oh, I need some scenes that are like this and this is how they evolve towards that. And maybe there's some lines, but I don't have to worry about the turning point being here. And I think turning points are useful, but I think sometimes also movements are useful. Sometimes it's great in a song to have a sudden drop into your middle eight, the beat drops or whatever. You get a sudden chord change, but sometimes it's great to have a piece of music where you're like, holy shit, I'm in a completely different part of the song. How the hell did they do that? At what point did we transition? It doesn't matter. Maybe the composer knows, but maybe they don't. But we know that they're kind of in there. So I think that's really cool.

Yeah, I think one of the reasons sinners feel so sophisticated and also fresh to us is because it doesn't prescribe so militantly to these thresholds that we often recognize.

And you, Ches?

I think what I really loved about this is the real focus on sources of antagonism in your story. Because so often when I'm trying to break a story, I'm just thinking from the protagonist and sometimes from other characters' point of view. But I liked how this was, you know, it could overlap with that kind of structure or not, but it really is just going like, how are the sources of antagonism moving and escalating in this? And it is, I think, why these films have so much to say beyond, you know, being a good vampire movie or a good action movie or a good comedy. And it's because everything is so aligned from these opposing forces, you know, the thesis and antithesis or antithesis. We always get our pronunciation completely wrong. It's fine. So, I really like that. And I've got, so you know, and I've referenced in the past few episodes because it's on my mind, but I've got a chamber piece with five characters, but three main ones who are all each other's antagonist. And I think going through and just writing for each of them, what tombs is for them is actually going to really provide specificity for the actions of the other characters. And it's going to make sure that everything feels like it's escalating for everyone in every single way.

But I would also- also suggests that you go down and go, what is something for them to survive? What is something for them to solve? And what is something for them to save? I actually think, even though we haven't fully gone into it, I think that's a really useful framework for actions. Because as we saw in Sinners, that actually also helped drive action when it was going in a quiet period.

Totally.

Go on, Kim.

Oh, you saying each, like multiple characters, not just two forces being each other's antagonists made me think of that really famous uh sartre play no exit uh where it's essentially like it's that famous phrase hell is other people you know you've got three characters in a room it's hell each of them is like perfectly chosen to be hell for another person in in the triangle uh and it's like you can have um forces of antagonism that that aren't like a dyad you can yeah have a triad.

You can have a Force Triad.

You can have a Force Diad and a Force Triad.

And I'm going to tease it now. We've talked about it. If you are interested in Mothership, I'll put some links to some great actual play podcasts. But we may, as Backmatter, do an actual play of Mothership with Kim and Chaz and Mel and maybe someone else. Because there is a module for Mothership. So, it's a very hackable game. And one of the kind of hacks or frameworks that someone has imposed is that you play a camera crew contracted to record footage of the monster, right?

So good.

To show the evils of the corporation or whatever it is going on. And there's literally like your goal is like a shot list and all this stuff. And there's something i'm like if we're gonna do this for fun it's kind of cool to have a bunch of filmmakers making something that's effectively designed to make a found footage situation so you create those moments of like don't go in there with the camera but i have to i have to get the evidence of the monster attacking anyway we'll see if it actually happens i'm sure it will i'm.

Extremely down for that.

I'm not editing that episode. I will be like- This 10-hour recording.

No, I've got one that should be like four hours. It would be like a couple of two-hour sessions. But yeah, I'm going to be like adding in music and sound effects and all that stuff. There's this Australian guy called Not Without the Bugbear who does like graphic overlays for his like three-hour recordings with maps and all that stuff.

It's pretty- Oh, damn.

The detail that people go into. Anyway, anything else?

Just as a flag, so we have also mulled a future episode. Kim has raised just Asian storytelling structures and...

This particular idea that I can't pronounce.

Specifically called Kishotenketsu. It's a very, very common four-act story structure in a lot of East Asian media. Um kishotenketsu is like the japanese term for it.

But i i don't know maybe we we just do that as its own episode because it sounds amazing but it also sounds quite niche in case people are like just wanting to make horror what i what i've been dying to do it's.

Not just about horror right kim.

Okay no.

No not at all.

Oh okay sorry then great let's do that and.

It's like it's maddening to me because it's like extremely like it's taught at i i believe like a kind of primary or.

Secondary level to like school kids uh in.

In east asia but it's like barely known in the west uh and i think it like has so many really exciting uh lessons.

But i would love to just you know do something where we watch three famous non-Western, non-English language, you know, like, could it be Anatomy of a Fall and Triple R and, I don't know, K-pop demon. For my own value as much as anyone else, it's like there's so much dogma around this is how story is supposed to work. And I'm like, that is only in this one storytelling tradition that has a lot of money and prevalence and cultural cachet across the world. So, it's not to diminish it, but we're shutting ourselves off from so much potential by not just uh being open to other cultural.

Structures kim.

And hi a brief chat about this like the cultural amnesia about like even western storytelling it was.

Like sid.

Field discovered the midpoint and.

It's like yeah what the fuck yeah your point as well that like kisho tenketsu one of the things is that in the midpoint there's this rupture and you know f3 kind of departs and introduces new context in parasite it's the like tunneling down and realizing there's a bunker underneath the thing it's like what the fuck i'm watching a different movie but um sue mentioned that like yeah the mid-act twist is like not uncommon in plays like in western plays it's just like we've kind of lost that a little bit yeah in in future storytelling that's.

All thank you so much kim what.

A delight thanks so much for having me to.

Meet you thank you for persevering through this uh epic god three hour recording uh definitely going to be two episodes thanks to our patrons who bring you more DraftZero more often, in particular to Alexandra, Jen, Jesse, Krob, Lily, Malay, Paolo, Randy, Sandra, Fies, and Thomas. And... Thanks to you, Stu, for buying Mothership and bringing us all together.

Introducing to them.

The only reason we're doing this podcast is so I could claim Mothership against tax. I mean, to be honest, I would actually claim TTRPG story materials anyway, but this makes it easier.

It's delightful. And that chart at the top of the Warden's Operation Manual is amazing. Of all the horrors, the potential transgressions, even just prompts. If you're stuffed, I feel like so many of those could be great writing exercises.

This is literally the, it's got a chart to let you randomly roll tombs. So it's got a column for transgressions that you roll for, you roll for omens, you roll for manifestation, you roll for the punishment. Like what is the rule uh and then what is this slumber that's so good and then and then you roll for the theme of the story it's like to be honest i would i would use this in a screenwriting class yeah like if i was teaching a horror workshop we'll do a horror workshop and it's going to be like roll a number roll a number roll a number roll a number now work as a writer's group let's.

Build it yeah.

Let's try to see if you can come out with something about it so you're not invested in coming up with that stuff you're kind of focusing on breaking the story.

And there's no sense of, like, ownership for your, like, for someone's idea. Like, sometimes it can be awful if you're offering your own idea up for your classmates to, like, breathe on. But to just be like, we're rolling tight to figure this out. Let's go. Totally.

I think that's what, you know, not to spruik a much more podcast with much higher listenership than ours. But, you know, John August's writer emergency cards is that just, like, pull a random card that gives a random prompt to just try and- Yeah.

Which is inspired by Brian Eno's oblique strategies, if you've ever looked that up. Anyway. Give me a random number, Chaz, and I will give you a theme.

32.

32.

Is Rust- It's the age I am in my head.

Rust, the machine and noise.

Hell yeah. Rust as a theme is just so like evocative. I'm like, hell yeah.

I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on this episode or anything in general. And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com. At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes. As well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Very important for spreading the word. Or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar or preferably more than a dollar, then you can also find links to our Patreon page to support us getting these episodes to you quicker. Thanks. And thanks for listening.