DZ-120: Subtext is Overrated! — Transcript

Chaz, when you said it off camera and then Stu stole your thunder, I immediately went, oh yes, that's absolutely right. And now that I think about it, I go, is it?

Hi, I'm Stu Willis.

And I'm Chaz Fisher.

And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where two emerging filmmakers and a special guest in today's episode, try to work out what makes great screenplays work.

One established screenwriter. And just before we introduce him to let everyone know, today we brought our guest on in particular to talk about subtext. We're going to talk about what subtext means to us. In particular, I guess, how to make it work and whether it should be an objective at all. And to do so, we're looking in particular at the films of Michael Clayton. Yes, Michael Clayton is back after last episode, written and directed by Tony Gilroy. We're looking at Inglourious Bastards, which we've done a whole episode on Tarantino, but I'm not sure if we've ever done Inglourious Bastards in particular, written and directed by Quentin Tarantino. And then we are doing the fabulous, more recent entry into this particular group, The Substance, written and directed by Coralie Faget.

Yes.

And that voice you hear is this established screenwriter. It is Tom Vaughan, screenwriter and teacher. Tom, if you don't know him, he's quite active on social media. And I started reading his tidbits about screenwriting and went, oh, this is a guy who kind of aligns with the way I think about screenwriting. And I signed up to his excellent newsletter, Story and Plot. And he wrote this incredible article on how subtext is overrated. And here we are, almost a year later, we're trying to organize it, having and talking about it. We have Tom on the show to join us talking about Subtext. Welcome.

Thank you. Yeah, it's been a lot of direct text trying to get a meeting going.

In our defense, even though you've written a film that was shot in Australia, which is The Great Winchester, you're actually based in Texas.

I am. I am based in Texas and dying to get down there to film another movie, hopefully pretty soon.

Awesome. And maybe the fact that you obviously have a passion for horror is maybe the reason I align with your take on it, because I think some of those more visceral genres require a certain approach to screenwriting. And that is reflected in this conversation around subtext. So I'm going to start with my kind of biases, because I think we should define subtext.

Sure i love that you're starting and not asking our guest what his take on subtext this is very draft.

This is true maybe we should cut this and we go tom why is subtext overrated no.

I i want mine to be a reaction okay.

All right so stew you go.

Okay so it's not what is subtext it's more like why i'm interested in this when i was a beginning screenwriter i wrote stuff and i kind of struggled with the idea of subtext and i was making stuff where characters kind of talked around each other and it didn't really sound natural and it was overly loaded or overly laden with symbolism right i kind of made stuff like a little bit indecipherable but i thought it was like subtext sure and i've taught screenwriting and seen that same problem with kids it's like how do you kids i mean they're young young adults and it's like how do you teach people to think about subtext so there's that element of like at the beginning of your screenwriting journey but i think as i've gotten older and more experienced it's less about that and more about how do i write the subtext on the page what are the tools that i can use to kind of i was gonna say the implicit explicit in a way but we'll get to what i mean by that what about you chas what kind of brought you to to wanting to discuss this with tom i.

Think i'm just going to be a bit literal for a second subtext is whatever text is going on beneath the text so what do we mean by text i'm like we're talking about film and tv what are the characters literally doing and saying and is there any other meaning underneath that beyond the literal beyond what they're doing and saying and that to me is subtext and there's i think when when subtext is done really well in a scene where and we're going to look at this incredible scene from michael clayton where two characters are talking around something but the audience understands so clearly what they're actually talking about, that it can be seen as subtle and deft and awesome. But I think there's a lot of work going on under the hood of those scenes that is not like a writer just going, oh, I need to be more subtle or something like that to- to make subtext work. So not to bury the lead. All right, Tom, reaction time. What's your take on subtext?

I think they're both fine takes. I think the literal take is definitely what I tend to think about. I know when I'm writing, I've been writing a long time. I used to find subtext fun, you know, a lot like Stu of like, okay, this is part of the job. And now I don't think about it at all. Like I never, it never occurs to me about subtext. It's just not parts, it's just not part of my scenes anymore. And I think someone who would read my scenes or, you know, watch these movies would think, oh, that subtext. Because just like from the literal, you know, explanation that you had, it was just like, well, it's just what's not being said. But for me, it's, it's just tactics it's just tactics and fear it is how are you trying to get what you want and what are you willing to reveal to the people in the room yeah and so it comes out sounding like subtext but from a dramatic standpoint everyone in the room knows everyone in the audience knows just that that scene for michael clayton everyone in the audience knows exactly what this scene is about, And it reminds me of the old Billy Wilder line of, it can be subtle as long as it's obvious.

I bet it's actually so good.

So you start out when you're writing and you want to have subtext and you hope that you can sit there with the actors and explain it to them. And they go, oh, I see. That's great. And that's actually bad writing. It's actually not particularly interesting writing from a dramatic standpoint. So you know when i approach a scene it's it is what are they revealing what are they willing to reveal what do they want what are they trying to get what are they willing to reveal and it is it is either a tactic to get what they want or a tactic to avoid what they don't want yeah.

And i think before we jump in uh for the for your benefit tom sue and i have had several explorations on tactics in previous episodes, which is, we've never discussed it in this context. So just to say that we're really on board that approach. It even happened in a recent workshop on a piece of work of mine where people, I've got these moments where the characters build up and they let loose the truth of themselves. And I believe it was Stu. If not, I make Stu the villain of all my stories but he said oh we can do that yeah oh yeah we can but she was like So why did they do that? What are they trying to achieve? What is their tactic in revealing the truth of themselves? What is it they want that they've been left with no other recourse other than to reveal the truth of themselves? I'm like, damn it, those are really good questions.

It's a good model.

Arthur.

I mean, what I like about your take on tactics there, which is what are they trying to reveal or not reveal, I like that as a simple way of thinking about it in the same way that another thing that I think we can explore in these scenes a little bit is this idea of the emotional event, which we got from Judith Weston and we did an episode with her.

Gosh, she's great.

Yeah. And I love that she's got this beautiful, complex story about emotional events. She's like, the simple way of thinking about is this relationship close? Are these people closer or further apart at the end? Right? And that's a simple way into thinking about it. And so, coming back to what you were saying about tactics, and I'm going to quote your own article on this, which is subtext is not the goal, right? It's a byproduct of other goals. And I think sometimes the emphasis on thinking too much about the subtext is it feels artificial because it's not what the characters are doing. And so, when you're thinking about it from what are the characters doing, subtext is going to emerge because, as you say, it's the result of the subtext, how they're trying to get what they want, right?

Yeah.

But I want to connect it to what Chaz has kind of said earlier, and he actually said it off mic.

Oh, you're going to steal my observation.

That there's the subtext that the characters are in control of, which is tactics, and the subtext that the filmmakers are in control of. And then I've got irony and dramatic questions and kind of emotional events as kind of the tools that the writers are in control of. I mean, in some ways, the emotional event is the result of characters seeking what they what they want. But I think the idea of how you dramatize that is something that the writers can put on the page. And I think what's important about, and we'll see if it bears true, the importance of tactics is that should be on the page, on the actual screen play page. And I think irony is built structurally. And so as much as we're talking about these small scenes and it's the Michael Clayton it's the scene when Karen is kind of basically asking for a hit to be taken out in glorious bastards it's when so Santa is confronted with the killer of her family and we and her are trying to work out if he knows who she is and the substance substance well, it's when we she turns into a giant gooey monster you know but there is interesting thing in that Because I think that's more, I think we're going to leave that at the end, because I think that's more about the filmmakers trying to communicate something else. And so that is shifting subtext into this idea of maybe symbolism or theme.

Yeah.

These other ways that people think about subtext.

Because when you said it, Chaz, when you said it off camera and then Stu stole your thunder, I immediately went, oh, yes, that's absolutely right. And now that I think about it, I go, is it? Wait, what did you mean? Like what? And like now it's one of those things of like a light bulb went off and then it's just slowly, okay, I'm going to need you to explain this now. Like give me an example of subtext. I will say things, I just had this little moment because I will say things in social media and I will say things that I've thought about and I will state and then someone will immediately say, hey, give me an example. And I get angry. Like I just did some work. You can do a little bit of work in this conversation. You know it could be a back and forth uh so i just caught myself going give me an example of what you mean.

Well i this might be a good segue to uh to go into these actual examples but i'm going to bury the lead michael clayton is a really clear example of both characters are talking around something they are very deliberately choosing what to say and what not to say yes and the subtext is between the two of them it's understood between the two of them and it's understood by the audience as well, right? In Inglourious Bastards, we are not clear on what the characters, we're very clear on what Shoshana knows, we are not clear on what Landa knows, and to me it's very much all the text of that scene is them literally talking about Strudel, and the subtext of it is... For the audience. And it's also for Shoshana in terms of her trying very hard not to say something, but we're really not sure where Lander sits. And that's where the drama and the tension of the scene comes from. And then I think when we'll get to the substance, you said off mic, I don't think there's text. The endings of the substance, the text is don't take unknown substances. And if you happen to turn yourself into a hideous monster don't then go and host a new year's televised live event that's what the text is saying right but the subtext is really screaming at you that it's about beauty standards and what we're prepared to go through and we'll get into that more but that's sue and elizabeth in the substance are not aware of the subtext that is being screamed at us right by the film by the text by the filmmakers okay.

Okay all right uh i see what you're saying i i i would definitely i like this way of thinking but i i can certainly say like i wonder if we're just robbing theme and tension.

From their.

Own definitions and calling it subtext probably.

Well i was just because i was going into this like broad thing like what is the text underneath the literal meaning of the scene in front of us. And it could be that for, when you look at it from a character perspective in the substance, there is no subtext. They are doing exactly and saying exactly what they mean and want. There's zero subtext from a character perspective. I think there is a lot of theme and a lot of tension coming through that has nothing to do with the characters. So, I mean, that's why for my, you might be right, maybe using the subtext is the wrong word. And certainly talking about subtext in just a character context is going to make better scenes. So maybe from a craft perspective, we could limit it that way.

Yeah, because when you did say it, and I immediately thought of Inglourious Bastards, because the narrative in our head is different from both of their heads.

Yes.

And so that's kind of what I clued in with what you were saying. It's like, okay, is that what he means by that? Because we have a very different set of what is going on than each character does.

Yeah, exactly. And look, ultimately, it could be that we're talking about narrative point of view here in terms of what does the audience know with respect of the characters. So in Michael Clayton, both characters and the audience all know exactly the same amount of information. Whereas we'll get to the big print of Inglourious Bastards. Sorry, we call Action Lines big print here in Australia.

Oh, I did not know that.

We get a lot of listeners going, what is this big print that they're talking about? But the action lines in the script of Inglourious Basterds, and we'll get into the nitty gritty of it, They are reinforcing the narrative irony all the time. It's like hitting us over the head. This is what you, the audience, know that Landa may or may not know, but that Shoshana very much knows.

Yeah.

So, just to unpick at this idea a little bit, because I think it will be useful. I've had the advantage that I've had time to think while Chaz talks.

And not listen to me. And Iota.

No, because you asked for an example about the separation between subtext for the audience and subtext for the characters, and why don't we just call it theme? And I just think there is this line between moving from character into theme, and I think it's how divorced we are maybe from the experience. As you were saying, Tom, it's about the story in your head and the story for the characters. And an example of something which kind of leans more into the subtext from the filmmakers, I think, is the zone of interest, right, which has got this very interesting effect between here are these characters. And it's a World War II movie, for those who haven't seen it, about the people that built the concentration camps, Auschwitz in particular, and we're seeing their ordinary lives that we never see over the wall, etc. So, there's this tension between what the characters are trying to do, the ordinariness of what they're doing, and our understanding of the larger story, and the tension between that. So, how the film is being told to us, for me, kind of has a subtextual element that is obviously thematic, but sits somewhat more closer to the kind of stuff that we're talking about. It's almost like the tactics of the storyteller, as opposed to the tactics of the character.

Right.

Might be a way of thinking about it. And you could just call it, as you say, theme and meaning. And there is obviously something very useful about that. But... Not everyone's going to be as precise as their terminology as us, and you may be in a development meeting where someone goes, oh, we need to work on the subtext here, and what they're actually talking about is how the audience interprets the meaning of your story as opposed to talking about the dramatic events within this scene.

Sure.

So, I'm not saying we're going to be able to cover both fully, but I think The Substance does do some good stuff on the page that helps you understand what it's trying to say. And I think the Inglourious Bastards does some good writing on the page as well that helps us understand that story in our heads. So I think that to me is actually a really great way of thinking about it. The irony requires us to have the story for the characters and the story in us as the audience and being aware of them both may help that stuff work.

Yeah, it's a great example, a zone of interest of us having a view of it 50, 60 years later when we know, gosh, it's 80 years later, of what that is. And then, you know, some of those tales that tell their structure backwards also have that same thing where we know the ending of this and the characters do not. And then, of course, there's no greater example of that than the ultimate filmmaker subtext film of Planet of the Apes.

Yeah.

Where they end it. They don't know what happened It was earth the whole time I don't know if you guys do that Earth the whole time Not.

In the Tim Burton 90's version.

No subtext in that movie Zero subtext in the Burton film It.

Was like plot twist Alright Well let's dive into the Examples.

Michael thank god Look I got a situation Arthur Edens just stripped down naked in a deposition room in Milwaukee. You are the senior litigating partner of one of the largest, most respected law firms in the world. You are a legend. I'm an accomplice. You're a manic depressive. I am Shiva, the god of death. I'm Michael Clayton. You're late. This is a $3 billion class action lawsuit. The architect of our defense has been arrested for running naked through a parking lot. He's building the case against you, North. Nobody's going to let him do that. Let him? Who the hell's going to stop him? I spent 12% of my life defending the reputation of a deadly weed killer. Arthur. No way! They killed the Michael. You, North, need to know he's under control. They've been shook up. They need to be reassured. What are you telling me? That I'm counting on you. You're not going to say... Just that it was something that would win the whole case. I'm not the enemy. Then who are you?

Michael Clayton is a legal thriller about the titular character. Michael Clayton, he's a fixer of a big New York law firm. He's played by George Clooney. The law firm's biggest case is a class action lawsuit with a company called U-North that make a weed killer.

The weed killer kills more than weeds.

Yes.

It's kind of the key thing.

Yeah. The lead litigator for the law firm that Michael Clayton works for has decided to defect to the other side. He's learned so much about U-North and has had a crisis of conscience that he's actually going to release to the world just how evil and terrible U-North is.

Yeah, he's found a document, an internal document. This scene's actually about Arthur, not Michael Clayton himself. It's about Arthur played by the late, great Tom Wilkinson. He has discovered the smoking gun, effectively, of the document where you North knew their weed killer killed people and they decided to not do anything about it. And they've been surveilling him. You North have been surveilling him.

Yeah. And so, I mean, we discussed at length in the previous episode about how Tony Gilroy is a humanist and just sees so much, even in his quote unquote villains or evil people, he loves bringing out their humanity. And this scene is actually about the general counsel of U-North, Karen, played by Tilda Swinton, and the man that she has hired, the leader of the team, Verne, to surveil Arthur. So, that's the context of the scene that we're coming into.

Maybe we should listen to the scene. It is short.

Yeah.

It seemed to warrant my company. You have to contain this. Contain? Right. Well, that's my question. What are the... What's the option that we're looking at along those lines? You're talking about the paper, the data? Well, I'm wondering if there is some other option. I mean, something I'm not thinking of. We deal in absolutes. Okay. I understand that. I do. In the material of the papers, I'm not a lawyer. We try. We do what we can. The other way? It is the other way. Maybe you want to bring Don in on this. No, this has nothing to do with Don. He's busy. This has nothing to do with Don. Do you think it's doable? Yeah, we have some good ideas. You say move, we move. The ideas don't look so good, we back off, reassess. Okay. Is that okay? You understand her okay?

So, Tom, why did you choose this scene? Why is this your example?

Primarily because it's full of subtext.

Yeah.

To me, this is the quintessential example of what we think of as subtext, where they are talking around a topic, and it goes to what I tend to think of. They have a tactic. She has to pretend she's not talking about what she's talking. And he has to pretend that she's talking about something else when they both know what they're talking about. And she's like, one of the lines that I love about something I haven't thought about, you know, like such a great, like pretending that she's not the one offering, I'm not initiating this conversation, but she absolutely is. And so, to me, it is, I want the option of, are we going to kill Arthur or not? And I want that on the table because all the other options are not acceptable. But the tactics are, is I'm not willing to admit that I'm initiating the conversation, just in case I'm being recorded. I have the same, like, my emails are full of subtext because I write every email with the assumption it will be made public.

Probably sensible.

Yeah. Like, I have no idea where this is going to be. So, like, I may get vicious emails from directors and stuff. And my reply is always, well, I'm just going to assume the producer is going to read this email. So, this is what she's doing. Now, a good question about subtext is, is she preparing herself so she can convince herself later she didn't do it? She didn't make this choice. And I think that's another layer of... Of subtext that we don't often think about. I just said we, I don't often think about or discuss. But I know, like, I can convince myself of a lot of things. And I can certainly convince myself of the righteousness of decisions. And I know, I am sure I've got stories of bad decisions that I have done that I have mentally scrubbed over the years. Where it was, well, I had to do that, or I didn't mean that or that was an accident when it really wasn't an accident. And we can convince ourselves of these things. And so like I'm curious of here of is this just as much for herself to deny that she initiated the idea? Even though in this moment it is purely like she's conscious of it, she's very aware of it.

I think so, yes. I mean, I think it's an interpretation but I think part of what makes this scene, fun and it's a fun scene is because you've got this thing of they have to they're talking around this issue but they actually need a uh a clear understanding of what like how to do it so it's how do you talk around about what we is but make sure we're on the same page because there's no walking this back you know and it ends with verne the uh the corporate spy i guess saying you know you mean okay you understand or okay proceed yeah.

It's great great line.

But i think that's what makes the scene fun because they've got the tactics but kind of the obstacle is them the fact that they have to talk around it so they're talking around this issue and their obstacle is they're actually talking around this issue yeah.

The.

Subtext is the.

Problem. But okay so there is very clear subtext they are not talking about putting a hit out on Arthur in the words that they're saying. So, that's the subtext. They are arranging and discussing and workshopping, putting a hit out on a human being without talking about that at all. So, there's text and subtext. However, the text... Is not something else entirely, which is what we have in the Inglorious Bastard scene where they're talking about arranging a cinema and talking about Strudel. They're not talking about anything else here. They're just trying very hard not to talk about the subtext. And I think, Tom, where you're coming from in terms of the character's internal drama about, is she avoiding talking about this, not just in case she's being recorded, but is she avoiding talking about this because she internally does not want to be as a person responsible for murdering another person i think is very deliberately structured by tony gilroy by how we leave the scene because like you've you've just pointed out she says okay and verne comes back saying you mean okay you understand or okay proceed yeah yeah and then she doesn't answer the question and the action line that Tony Gilroy has written that we leave the scene on is Vern nods full stop, but hanging full stop. Where are they? Question mark. Still waiting for an answer as dash, dash, we cut out of the scene. So he is very deliberately left us as the audience. And he's telling us as the reader that he's leaving us going, she has not confirmed in words that she is going to be responsible for the murder of a person.

It's not in the movie but i'd be very curious if gilroy would write the sequel to this scene where verne says she told me to do it and what would her reaction be like what what would like what would she say like like what would like i didn't tell you to do it we.

Were we were discussing stealing the document.

Yeah it's like my god man i was yeah my god what do you what were you thinking but you told me no i did not yeah.

Yeah because it's it's in the response to and and it's in parent the use of parentheticals throughout this script and in this scene is so fantastic you know you mean okay you understand or okay proceed parenthetical silence and then vern saying maybe you want to bring don in on it so she doesn't respond the silence she's made he's he's feeling the silence and he we get his interpretation of what that silence means immediately, which is maybe we need to talk to Don about this, right? So obviously you're meaning you want to continue.

He's got such clear beats in his scene. He's such clear what emotion causes and creates the next beat. He's as good as they come with that.

Oh yeah, Tony Gilroy. I thought you meant Vern, but you actually meant Gilroy.

Speaking of subtext.

But I mean, I think the structure of the scene, speaking of that, is really interesting, right? So we start with them listening to... Arthur. Vern's like, you know, I wanted this to bring this to your attention. He wants her to give him some instructions or directions, right? And she's like, yes. And the big print just emphasizes the awkwardness of this, an awkward beat, people, cars, life going by, right? And then Karen is like, asks him to contain it. And so the first kind of, the first third, I guess, The beginning of the scene is them listening to Arthur. The second little section, the second beat of this is Karen trying to get Verne to realize what she's asking.

Right.

And then when he understands it, what he's asking, he's, he's seeking confirmation. Right. And then that last little beat is him seeking confirmation of, do I understand you correctly? That's kind of like, to me, how I interpret the structure of the scene. The midpoint is, I mean, I'm using the terms loosely, but it's like, to me, the midpoint of the scene where the scene hangs is when Karen says, and the other way, and Vern says, is the other way. And it emphasizes the heaviness of this, because in the big print, there's not much action lines or big print in this scene. But after he says, is the other way, the big print is heavy pause, life passing all around them. And I like that the script slows down for a moment, right? It could just use the word beat or put it in parenthetical, but they want to put you in the action line because they want you as the reader to sit with the implication of it.

Right?

So, it's a great bit of writing because this is like the storyteller subtext, right? They're using that tool to make sure we understand what she's got into it. So, we kind of catch up to Vern. I mean, I've seen this film a few times now, so it's hard to know what that first time experience was. But my memory is you're probably experiencing this scene more with Verne, right? You're coming in, he's giving it to her. You're kind of catching up to what she is saying with Verne. And then you're like, oh, okay, this is what you're asking for. And I think that line kind of does that.

Definitely. I mean, I love, because you're right, as they're starting to talk- She's trying to ask Vern, can you kill Arthur? And Vern thinks initially that she's talking about the report because she's saying, you know, you have to contain this. He responds, contain. She says, right, that's my question. Having not asked a question at all, I do enjoy that. Short of whatever else, something more, what's the option for something along those lines? That is just like word salad. That means absolutely nothing. thing and burn responds you're talking about the paper the data and so she's she's got to keep word salading at him until he understands and you know you're talking about parenthetical stew the next one is one of the best parentheticals i've ever read karen says that there's a more limited option is what i'm asking and then in parentheticals it says cold sweat fumbling something i'm not thinking of and like tom you you brought up that line before because it's like i want i'm trying to tell you something and i'm trying to tell you that i'm not thinking about it at all and.

Then i love that verne says we deal in absolutes which is like stop with your word salad but again that creates the the subtext of the scene is.

That he.

Is probably want something more explicit right and i think he is growing frustrated with her.

Yeah and that's why he asked whether she should bring don in like well.

It's it's like she's trying to inception him or.

Something you.

Know.

Something i'm not thinking of.

Yeah so it's his idea as you say it's like her i mean maybe that's part of the subtext of the.

Scene the tactics.

Is she wants him he she's trying to incept him so it's his idea and he knows that that's what she is trying to do yeah so he wants her to be explicit but he also works for her.

And also that moment down there and end the other way is the other way. They've done it before.

Yeah.

They've done it before. Maybe not together, but Vern has. She hasn't, but Vern has. Because end the other way is the other way. That's not someone who's never had to make this choice.

And how much you get from that one line to read into that. I mean, this is just.

Yeah.

And clearly Don has previously instructed him to make this choice in the past. He's like, maybe we should bring in the guy who will just tell me a yes or no answer on the murder.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

He's busy. He's very busy. He cannot. He's too busy to order a hit.

Yeah, yeah.

And scene is a total of like a page and a. Quarter, maybe a page and a third, and that it has three such clear movements in it that are so dramatically powerful, without them at any point ever saying what they truly mean is incredible.

Yeah.

And coming back to subtext as a result, we had to lay a bunch of groundwork about what the story was, Arthur, the implications of this information, right? So when we come into this scene, right, the audience is able to put together the pieces of what she is asking for, because we actually understand what's at stake for her as well, right?

Yeah.

And we kind of understand, we've already seen Vern and his kind of like ruthless efficiency. He's the kind of guy where the other way is the other way, right? And we've seen all that. So, this scene can have these characters talking around each other and we fully understand what it is, what they're asking. And it's interesting. It's such a weird way to talk about it. But when we edited the previous episode, we played the trailer for the movies or sections of the trailer as a way of introducing them. And I watched a bunch of trailers for Michael Clayton. And even though this is a scene that everyone remembers from the film, it's not in the trailer. Because I don't think if you have the information, you wouldn't know what they're talking about. You need the information beforehand to understand the power of those words.

And it might very well be why subtext is essentially dead in movies, is because... You just can't get a trailer full of subtext.

No.

You can't market subtext, man.

You have to market it by saying it's overrated. And then hopefully people read your newsletter and listen to a podcast on it.

Every line is literal.

Yes.

Coming this summer.

I mean, Chaz ended up reading. I did my usual thing. I send Chaz an article and then the knowledge that he'll read it and then summarize it for me, which is there was the article on the new literalism, talking about the substance and this trend to have an absence of subtext in modern movies.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah, yeah. We'll get to that in the substance. Yeah.

Because that was one of the examples the writer was calling out.

I just want to note that Stu sent Chaz an article about how the substance has no subtext. And Chaz responded with, I want to talk about the subtext in the substance. This is a direct FU to either you or the writer of this article. And I don't know which one.

But this scene is as fabulous as it is. Because to Stu's point, the work that's gone in leading up to the scene is that we all have the same amount of information. The audience and both characters uh karen comes into the scene catching up to us yeah but verne and us as the audience we know what arthur's plan is and karen learns that information at the very beginning of the scene she's hearing the recording that they have so that's the the pre-work that has gone into a scene like this is putting all all of us on the same like orienting us as an audience And then Tom, your, your description of their tactics is like how the tactics can be summarized so simply, but it's so beautiful. It's like, how can you have a meeting which needs a decision when no one in the meeting can actually talk about what the decision has to be or how it can be brought about?

Yeah. Everyone wants everyone else to make the decision of the thing that they can't even talk about.

Yeah.

Sounds like every meeting in front.

But but sublime just because and it's just because of those to your point tom i don't think tony gilroy sat down and said i'm gonna write the the best subtext ever yeah this scene, It evolves so beautifully from the tactics that the characters are adopting.

Yeah.

Coming back to the structure, because I've looked at it again, the subtle shifting tactics. So, you know, she brings up this containment thing. So, her goal is to get it contained. Her goal for the scene is to get it contained. And then she realizes when Vern says contain, she needs to get him to understand what that means, right? And then that beat from contain question mark ends with the, is this the other way, right? That's the end of that first section. She then asks him, do you think it's doable? And then that other beat is the, will she get him to agree to it? And that ends when he, Ver nods, the scene ends with Ver nodding. He's agreed to what she's asked.

Well, to my mind, they do actually want two different things. As soon as they understand what they're talking about, which is most of the scene, is them gaining a mutual understanding of what Karen is talking about, and then you've got the decision. But in that decision, the two characters want two different things. Karen wants Arthur killed, and Vern wants Karen to take responsibility for the decision of killing Arthur.

Yeah, even though Vern is already like, we have some good ideas.

Yeah.

They've discussed it.

You mean okay you understand or okay proceed.

Yeah yeah it's such a good scene and and just from a writing standpoint or a writer's standpoint you just have this scene on your board that says, karen makes the decision and and then it's just like well how much fun is that going to be to write and then you just go in knowing this is going to be this and this is this tactic and this is this tactic, and then probably made the decision, and obviously I don't know, but probably made the decision to in the writing of the scene that we were going to cut out before she actually makes a decision. Because otherwise, there's no point to this scene. Unless the point was is he had this idea for a scene where they had to talk about a hit but couldn't talk about a hit. Which I tend to think is less likely. That tends to be the way you're going to execute a scene. But every now and then, of course, you have this idea of how you're going to execute a scene and then you... And then that becomes like, where do I put that scene?

Yeah.

Because she doesn't make the decision.

That's actually a really profound revelation. The idea that the scene works and is in the movie because she doesn't make the scene. It doesn't make the decision. On screen.

Well, I mean, obviously someone makes the decision.

Someone does. Later we learn, yeah.

Arthur gets killed in a very chilling sequence that's trying to replicate real time.

And and apparently that makes the hit on michael much easier to choose too yeah.

Well we we never see that is we never see a similar scene about michael we just.

See yeah yeah and.

We understand that that's what they're they're doing with the car bomb.

She goes from like not being able to say it to just like now she's got a game of thrones hit list yeah.

She general counsel cersei to uh.

Yeah and it's still it's one of my favorite lines from this film is later on where he's like i'm not the guy you hit i'm the guy you buy off like yeah i'm so obvious like like i'm so corrupt and so obvious how could you make this mistake now.

I'm conscious that we've got you for another little over another hour tom so i think we should move on to two inglorious bastards we're.

Gonna be dropped into France dressed as civilians. We're gonna be doing one thing, one thing only. Killing Nazis. Yes, sir! Members of the National Socialist Party conquered Europe to murder, torture, intimidation, and terror. And that's exactly what we're gonna do to them. We will be cruel to the German and through our cruelty they will know who we are. They will find the evidence of our cruelty in the disemboweled, dismembered, and disfigured bodies they're brothers we leave behind us. And the German will not be able to help themselves from imagining the cruelty their brothers endured at our hands and our boot heels. Natsy ain't got no humanity they need to be destroyed each and every man under my command owes me 100 natsy scalps and i want my scalps, nine nine nine nine nine nine sound good yes sir.

So as i mentioned before the inglorious bastard scene that we're talking about is the infamous strudel scene but just to set up a little bit inglorious bastards is the world war ii fan fiction by uh quentin tarantino it's possible it's in my top three tarantino films so i really really is it really yeah i really really like inglorious bastards but as is tarantino's want it it follows a number of different storylines that all happen to conveniently come together in a glorious climax of violence and fire, but this particular scene, the film opens with Colonel Hans Lander, who's an SS, his nickname is the Jew Hunter played by Christoph Waltz.

Murdering the- There's some subtext for you.

Murdering the entire family of Shoshanna.

And a few years later.

Shoshana is being wooed. She's moved to Paris. She's assumed a new identity, hiding her religion and her ethnicity. She's now inherited a cinema in Paris and she is being wooed by a Nazi sniper called Frederick.

He's also becoming a movie star.

Yes, Frederick has become the star of Goebbels' latest propaganda exercise. And Frederick, as part of his attempts to woo Shoshana, wants the premiere of Goebbels and his movie to be at Shoshana's cinema. Now, the context of this scene is that Shoshana has just been told by a Gestapo major to get in a car and she has no idea where she's going. And she shows up at a famous Parisian cafe and there is Goebbels and Frederick. Now, I think the scene that we particularly want to talk about is the final third of this scene, but we recently did an episode on Adolescence, Tom, the Netflix show, and we talked a lot about French scenes where the scene changes by the entrance and exit of characters and that is definitely the case with this scene.

Oh, yeah.

There's an initial scene between Goebbels, Goebbels' French translator, Frederick and Shoshana, and then Lander appears.

Ah, Lander, there you are!

He comes into the scene, sits at the table. There's then another scene with this new dynamic introduced by Lander. And obviously Shoshana trying very hard not to react to the fact that her family's murderer is sitting next to her. And then even more terrifying, Goebbels and Frederick leaves. And Lander asks to just have Shoshana stay behind. So that they can have just a one-on-one conversation that is the final movement or the final French scene within this larger scene. Is that a reasonable summary of where we're going to?

Yes. I think it's worth noting that his justification is a security concern.

Yes.

I'm just going to quote one bit of Action Line, which is, the SS officer sits down and it's our old friend from the first scene, Colonel Hans Lander. Frederick introduces Emmanuel. This is Colonel Hans Lander of the SS. He'll be running security for the premiere. Close up on Shoshana. A bomb is dropped and detonated behind her eyes. But if she gives any indication of this, her war story ends here. The SS officer who murdered her family takes her hand and kisses it. So like what what we were saying earlier tarantino is screaming to us the subtext of this scene in the action lines.

And and what's interesting is in the actual movie itself he turns the music up to 11 at that moment too oh.

It's in the movie that's what.

You read this and you watch the movie and it's close up you're like yep i i i will tell my students as i teach it's interesting i never made this connection until just now but I will tell them like a director, a director has this great tool of music, in their movie and you don't have that and so your action lines have to play that role in your movie it has to play the role of the musical score and that's exactly what he does here when he says the monster that killed her family that's the text version of the music, that the score turns up in that moment in the movie.

I actually like that way to think about action lines being the music, because it's something that Chaz and I play with a lot, is revealing the interiority of characters in the action line or clarifying them in parentheticals or in big print. And some people ask us why, and I think now I can give the answer. It's like, it's the score, right?

Yeah.

If you need to turn it up to 11 or if you need to cut it, right you know you need to kind of un you know drop the sincerity or whatever it is that you're playing with you kind of actually have to use your big print to to do it and sometimes it's the fix i'm on our own script there was no for the producer saying this beat is awkward and it's like yeah yes the beat is meant to be awkward and so we just wrote awkward beat, great right as the parenthetical before the dialogue so it's not like a huh it's like a oh that's that is deliberate that is the point and i think what is interesting about tarantino unlike gilroy is he definitely writes a lot of his writes a lot of quote-unquote music into his big print yeah and it's funny that how much he plays with that so you've got the narrator telling us things that are going on you've got the the flash cut to goebbels having the affair with his translator, right? They're not making that as a subtext that's played within the scene. They are telling the audience that this is what's going on. But that's important because it means that when we see their relationship, we're not trying to guess. We're not being pulled out of the scene trying to guess whether Goebbels and his translator are having an affair. We know they're having an affair and therefore we read into their interactions, right?

Oh, I was like, I like the switch from the script to the movie too. Because in the script, the focus is on her when they're having sex.

Yes.

And in the movie, the focus is on him making very pig-like noises. Very exact. And it's it's just a like a like i'm just sure they just discovered that that this is that was more interesting and more dehumanizing of goebbels or like whatever it.

Is it.

Was just an interesting change from the first version of the movie to the final version of the movie.

It is it is it is a interesting change and i think it kind of also reflects that in terms of the the tactics of the scene goebbels in this first section and we do want to talk more about the strudel but goebbels is basically an egomaniac right he's a narcissist and the whole scene is actually about him just talking about him and.

His spider-like fingers which is just a great lie.

And but i think what's interesting about that is obviously it has this point where he's trying to go to the this idea that shasana will host the premiere right and so that's kind of the tactics of all of that and it's And it inflates her importance. It inflates Frederick's importance from his egomania.

And motivates it. It's great.

I mean, a couple of times it does point out in the action lines that as if Shoshanna has any choice. I think it's twice throughout the scene. They are Shoshanna something. And in the action line, it says as if Shoshanna has any choice in the matter.

And that's a similar thing is not replicated in the movie, though. That's what's kind of interesting.

Oh, it isn't.

No, because the question is there, and it is a commentary on the moment that's from Tarantino, but not Tarantino, the director. Because it's not a moment in the movie. Like, we understand of like, hey, would that be okay? And she goes, uh-huh. And then, of course, we go, well, of course, she has to agree. But there isn't that emotional beat where it's, well, of course, like, I don't have a choice. So it's just a it's it's an interesting commentary that has no dramatic equivalent when the film is executed.

Okay so i'm i do want to get into the strudel but i do want to because it is interesting it's like three pages of google's waxing lyrical right yeah what makes it and and you know obviously tarantino is an incredibly gifted dialogue writer but i think he's incredibly gifted at drama which is why his dialogue is good what is goebel's tactic here if we're talking about like what is subtext is the result of these of drama what's his goal here what's his tactic here well.

He's certainly uh aggrandizing himself just like the narcissist of of taking over the table uh but it's also interesting a lot of it's cut A lot of this doesn't make the final cut of the film. So at some point, you might very well have had Tarantino going, what the hell is this all about? Let me just go ahead and cut it. There is a difference between scenes that are full, long scenes that are full and are dense. And then there are long scenes that are just long. And it's kind of i i think if you like history and you're interested in this sort of thing and but like lucky kids like all that stuff this is what i'll there is irony to like i'll be remembered for lucky kids of course you know like that but there's a reason why it's cut from the final film and.

Maybe it's the absence of subtext right the.

Oh yeah as.

Soon as she realizes that she's not been brought to the cafe to be interrogated and executed as a Jew in hiding, as soon as she realizes that, the narrative tension somehow somewhat leaves the scene.

Yeah.

And that it's all about Frederick basically trying to convince Goebbels to use her cinema and Goebbels, I think, just toying with Frederick.

Which- Yeah.

Doesn't sustain itself for three pages.

Well, especially not when Shoshana is our point of view character.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because she is completely incidental to what's going on in terms of the tactics of the people in the scene. Like Shoshana's tactic is, I need to say as little as humanly possible. And the other two are the ones with an objective. And it's only when Hans arrives in the scene that, The subtext is reignited and it's just reignited pretty much through dramatic irony, through narrative point of view.

I mean, he literally interrupts the scene in the script. They call out the fact that the uniform half enters frame, the bottom half of the uniform enters frame. And then he kind of takes over from that point of view. So, we should dive into this back half of it.

It's.

Just interesting interrogating that and it is good to realize that they did cut most of it yeah probably because that subtext isn't as strong to hold it together there's.

No drama there.

So i've already mentioned the the bomb going offline then once goebbels and friedrich and francesca leave i'm just going to read the action lines again because tarantino is telling us as the reader what we already know but he's like drawing our attention to it because like this is why the scene is going to be you're going to read dialogue about strudel but it's going to be tense as fuck uh so everybody says their farewells colonel lander offers the young jew in hiding a seat at a small table in the outside patio area of maxim's the fluency and poetic proficiency of the ss jew hunters french reveals to the audience that his feigning clumsiness at french with monsieur Lapadite in the film's first scene was simply an interrogation technique. So he's setting us up for the scene.

Yes, but also that no one in the audience got.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, like this is like, it can be subtle as long as it's obvious, but this was not like no one picked this up at all. No one.

But what you do get is why does he want to talk to her? He suspects that you actually kind of get the obvious part of all of this. Yes.

I mean, what they're setting up is that what he's telling us in the action lines is he is a skilled interrogator, and this is going to feel like an interrogation, which it does, from Shoshanna's point of view. She is unaware and desperately wants to know, am I sitting in an interrogation or not?

And it means- means that when he just starts like, have you tried the strudel here? So it goes interrogation technique. Have you tried the strudel here? Right. Like on the big print, you feel the tonal shift, right. Which may be reflected in the music. Right. So as much as you're saying that no one in the audience got this subtle bit of, I mean, this is to me like directing the actor. This is a great bit of direction for the actor, which is Christopher, your, your French in the beginning of the film is going to be clumsy. It's not going to be clumsy here. That's something the audience is going to hear, but it's not going to be, and that you can play, but it's not going to be something that they're consciously aware of. But what it does do on the page is mean that there is a tonal shift to the second half that says, this is an interrogation. It's going to feel like an interrogation, which it does. I think in the way it's shot and probably the way its music is played, it feels more of an interrogation. I certainly remember the first time, this is one of those many tense scenes in this film. It's like the underground bar scene is the other big one that we also considered doing. The tension just ramps up and it's just people having normal conversation. But you can really feel the tension here. Because we know she's a Jew in hiding. And that's the important thing from the earlier beat. It's reminding us of the reader, what's at stake for her, right? And the irony, what she's trying to hide and not reveal. So, that's kind of the coming back to the tactic. This isn't the tactic of what she wants to reveal. This is the tactic of what she doesn't want to reveal. And then us filling the gap of him. What's interesting is we don't actually know why he's there. He just says he wants to discuss a security concern. So we kind of feel the void of information.

I, I, I, and I'm certainly not being critical of Tarantino, who is certainly one of our best writers. He's just one of our best writers. But, like, of the three interrogation scenes, this, to me, is the least effective.

You're right.

Like, the opening one, the opening one is incredibly effective. Like, that's, to me, it's one of the great scenes in cinema. The scene at the bar, which as you start to suspect that this officer suspects this officer isn't who he says he is. Both those scenes, people were asking questions in an effort to get more information. Whereas in this scene, I think it leans way too much on we know that she's a Jew. We know who he is. But he seemed somewhat uninterested. And he says, this is a formality. And of course you hear that and you think, well, that's probably not true. That's probably an interrogation technique. But it seems at the end of the scene that that was in fact true.

Yeah. He suspects nothing.

He's unaware, suspects nothing, makes no decisions or choices that lead him down one path or another path. He is just being polite. To the girl that gerbils. And so to me, there is a potential of tension that never fulfills itself and then falls flat at the end.

This is interesting because I think this kind of connects back to a somewhat similar version of the zone of interest thing. This is subtext, the filmmaker's subtext, right?

Yeah.

In a way that, as you say, we're interpreting his questions as an interrogation And Tarantino's working very hard for us to feel that, to the point when he orders the glass of milk. And I remember that moment when he goes, oh, can I have a glass of milk? It calls back to the beginning of the film when he does the same thing, when it actually writes in the big print. Considering that show, Sanna grew up in a dairy farm, and the last time she was on a dairy farm, her strudel companion murdered her entire family. His ordering her milk is, to say the least, disconcerting.

But did you feel that in the scene?

I found it disconcerting.

Okay.

Yes, I did. The first time I saw it, I did find my tension ramped up. But as you say, that's not a tactic from him. That's her experience of it.

Yeah.

And the ending of the scene is her literally having pissed herself.

Yeah.

Because what I think the filmmaker's intention of this, the subtext from the filmmakers or the storytellers point of view, is to make us realize how under threat she is in every part of her life. That these guys are scary even when they're not trying to scare you for someone like her yeah and i think for me it works like that but it's an interesting this is an interesting i think this is that other type of subtext you know it's not theme it's not meaning it's the storyteller trying to make us feel something in a particular way uh in this case i think to help us empathize with her yeah.

It's it's it's one of the reasons why just filmmaking is just so damn hard.

Oh yeah you know Like.

It is just so much harder than it looks. Because I... I think the experience he wants the audience to have is the experience you have and the experience that i had was oh this is going to be another tension like this is going to be another, and then it feels like a letdown and then i had just read the script from you guys so like i only knew the movie up to this point which kind of shows her a moment of like that tension and fear releasing which i i just from a personal standpoint would like to have seen longer i would like i thought i thought it cut too short on just how of just what that would be like to try to pretend to keep a secret and hold that tension and then you have a single moment where you're it's allowed to go yeah i i would like to have seen what that looked like like a little longer but i like what you're saying to me the scene where oh my god is this interrogation this interrogation is this interrogation and then the realization of no he literally is just asking formally. And and to have that my god he was just being like going through polite and she practically vomited you know and she peed herself in the script yeah yeah and if i had felt that version of the scene which I think is what you're saying you felt that version of the scene then it would have been I was like oh my god what a great scene but it's why filmmaking is so hard of like how do you, give everyone in the audience the experience you want to give them while everyone in the audience feels like they're the only ones who had that private experience, without everyone having different because then if everyone's different you're not in control you're not telling a story and he's like obviously one of our best so it's just difficult craft yes.

It's to put it in the context of like what works well about this and not is again he hasn't gone into it going lander is talking about something else he's not he is pure text he is talking about strudels and cinema security there is no subtext.

Yeah whatsoever.

To to the dialogue that that lander is in control of.

Yeah right.

And this is where we're talking about the subtext of is it the characters are aware of it which is what is in michael clayton versus the irony created by the filmmakers and the, I think potentially what you're missing, Tom, is Shoshana's tactic is to not give herself away.

Sure.

She desperately wants to know what Hans knows. And in fact, this is once again called out in the action lines. So, right after that line that, Stu, you read out before about how disconcerting the ordering of the milk is. It says, the key to Colonel Lander's power and or charm, depending whose side you are on, lies in his ability to convince you he's privy to your secrets. Right. So Shoshana desperately wants to know, do you know who I am?

Right. But that's in the text of the script. Is that in the scene?

Well, I think it is in the scene. Like she's fearful, but.

Because if he knows who she is, what's the point of the scene?

Well, I think he's established with us in the first scene that he likes toying with people. So, you know, this is obviously a direct callback to the first scene. Is he toying with her or is he not?

Yeah.

And I think potentially the issue that you're missing that you feel in those other interrogation scenes is that Shoshana's tactic here is to not reveal herself. She's got an objective, which is, I want to know, is this an interrogation or not? But her tactic cannot go towards that dramatic objective at all. She just has to hide what she's feeling. Whereas in those other two scenes, Monsieur Lapidit has an objective and his tactic aligns with that objective to hide the family under the floor. And in the later scene, the Michael Fassbender character, I can't remember the name of his character, but... In that interrogation in the bar underneath, Michael Fassbender's character has tactics to try and counter the suspicion. He goes into a long story about where his German accent comes from and the actor character is also playing along with that. So, that's where the movements of the scene and the drama and the tension can shift within the scene because of the tactics available to the characters so this this one scene there's no dramatic movement we looked at a one page scene with michael clayton where there was three dramatic movements in this scene it is the same yeah drama throughout it's just tension which tarantino is a master i'm not saying that that's a negative thing like he can sit in tension for so long but maybe that's what you're missing in comparison to those other scenes is maybe the lack of tactics available to the characters and as a result of those lack of tactics there's a lack of dramatic movement to the scene i.

Really like your comment about the filmmaker's subtext here though like i think this is a really good example of what i think i the light bulb went off when you said of like here's here's the filmmaker's tactics because we eventually learned landa has no real subtext here.

Yes you.

Know like we eventually learn and he he is just a formality that this woman was literally introduced to him by Goebbels.

Yeah.

You know, like he's not looking or thinking anything, but he's polite and, you know, he forgets the cream and so there's all these long moments of like, don't do the strudel with the strudel. So, So to me of like, oh, well, like we're being told their subtext by the filmmaker because she's trying to figure out what the subtext is.

Yeah.

But in actuality, there isn't the subtext.

Yeah.

And so I guess what I wanted to me to have felt that was like when it was done to have understood that from the scene and watching the scene rather than a podcast discussion. I wanted i wanted that i wanted to understand it in the moment and go oh that's poor like like she thought she was an interrogation and she wasn't and what an awful awful life, so like now that we talk about it it's like oh yeah this is this is really good you know like okay but again it's like going back to it can be subtle as long as it's obvious, of what is the experience, what is the shift and the change in the scene. And it always feels, because it's just for fun, because you're just, we're talking about Tarantino. So like we're talking about, is it a 99 out of a hundred or is this a 98 out of a hundred? And like, that's the debate.

Yeah.

I mean, and it is interesting just coming back to this filmmaker subtext Because unlike Michael Clayton, he is doing a lot of work and he's writing a lot of music in his action lines here.

Yeah.

Because he's wanting an effect that isn't arising from the drama of both characters. Like, I certainly think we need to understand what she's thinking on the page for him to have the effect that he is looking, which us sitting with her, believing something is an interrogation when it is not. And I definitely lean a little bit more into the Tarantino, you know, that's what I've learned from reading Tarantino scripts is this kind of writing of sometimes you just got to write in the- Oh.

I think you should. Yeah. You absolutely should.

This is the guy from the beginning of the film that murdered her old family.

Absolutely.

Because you will remember that when he sits down, you will recognize that face because there is a literally a face to it. Whereas on the page writing Colonel Lander has none, brings up none of those emotions.

No, watching a movie and reading a script are two different experiences, and you have to create that experience of the movie for the reader. Yeah. You have to.

You have to. I mean, that's absolutely the best writing advice I was ever given back when I was at the VCA, which is the film school I went to, was write the experience. And I've clung to that ever since. And in fact, I think our podcast is all about that and maybe why we like what you write about screenwriting and what you talk about because it's the same thing it's how do you recreate the movie experience on the page yeah and this is, carantina trying to do something because he has this idea in mind of and it's, We're talking about the experience for the audience. I do think it's about putting us in the experience of Shosanna as well. And he is writing about it as it's not that it's scary for us. It's that it's scary for her. This is the guy that murdered her family. She is feeling anxious, all that stuff. It is about how his presence makes her feel. But as you say, there is less shift. There's less complexity in the shifting here. It's him sitting in the tension. There's a couple of shifts, but they're very small. is she kind of blabbers a bit and he says, there's no reason to feel anxious.

Yeah.

And then she shifts to very short answers, right, in response. But he doesn't seem to pick up on that. You know, it would have been interesting if he's like, you've just gone from blabbering to being really short. And then when they bring up Marcel, her African projectionist, and he picks up on that and he talks about the Negro, et cetera, et cetera, the tension rises again.

Yeah.

But then he's like, oh, yeah, no, I can see how that works. and then it dissipates. So you've got these ebbs and flows, but it's not like these shifts in the same way that we see in Michael Clayton.

Yeah, it doesn't escalate. It shifts, but it doesn't escalate.

Interestingly enough, all the substance does is escalate in madness.

That is a pretty amazing segue. Well done, Stu. So can we move on to the substance, Tom?

Yes, let's go over the 67 pages of the substance that you sent to me.

I've only highlighted one page.

Have you ever dreamt of a better version of yourself? Younger, more beautiful, more perfect. One single injection unlocks your DNA and will release another version of yourself. This is the substance. A perfect balance of seven days each. The one and only thing not to forget. You are one. You can't escape from yourself. There's been a slight misuse of the substance. No! This balance is not working! Would you like to stop? Would you like to stop? I'm fine.

To be clear so we were we came into this with tom's article is called subtext is overrated and i was like all right what's what film is an example of how subtext is overrated and i to put my cards on the table i really love the substance but i also think any criticism leveled at it, like in this New Yorker article, that it is obvious is fair. It is the most obvious film I think I've potentially ever seen.

But why is obvious a criticism?

And that's where I disagree with the whole premise of this article in the New Yorker. But they were like, Anora and The Substance are too literal. They're the new literalism. they're very obvious but then was like but conclave and furiosa by contrast uh like the films that we should aspire to to have with more sort of subtlety and grace i'm like furiosa.

That is a an odd mix in that for it is such an odd criticism of calling something obvious it's bizarre to me now untruthful uninteresting so obvious to the point where i didn't believe the moment like i get that but that's the problem isn't obvious the problem is you didn't believe the moment like it didn't make you feel anything um and and so you know translating that or interpreting that as obvious is i i don't want to dive down the argument or like down this road but It really is such an elitist interpretation of it should like some people shouldn't get it. I should be the only one who gets it. And if other people get it, it bugs me. That's kind of like the heart of an elitist argument.

Yeah, well, I think there seemed to be a conflation between subtlety and originality, right? That because there's no audience reaching for meaning, that means the experience is uniform and unoriginal. Whereas the substance, I mean, we should probably summarize it at some point. And Stu, you've seen it more recently than me or Tom, if you're keen to have a go at summarizing the substance by all means. But it was a completely original experience for me.

Yeah. From every perspective. How it was filmed, how it was told. There's certainly thematically, I would say, maybe it's not the most original, but it's universal and it's a tale as old as time. It is the heart of human nature of feeling like you're aging out of life. And what do you do about it? Do you embrace where you are or do you try to recapture youth? And it's told from the perspective of a celebrity, but that's also just a plain old, you could have a midlife crisis. You could have told that exact same story from a 52-year-old. You could have told the exact same story, and they do, from an 80-year-old who does it. And then they get to the younger version of themselves. And to me, what makes it original is how they told this story. And how surreal the editing is. Like the choices it makes, all the things that it doesn't even bother to explain.

And just to be clear, I know you guys are both, we've got an Australian phrase here, Tom, maybe you know it from your time here of paying that you both are paying me out. You're both teasing me for choosing 67 pages of script. But what I really want, my experience of the film was when I was watching it, was that it ended multiple times. It was almost Lord of the Rings in its like, oh, and here's another ending and here's another ending. I kept expecting a cut to black, and then there was another sequence where it was making the exact same point, but just as due to what you said earlier.

Yeah.

But it escalated, so it just kept ending, escalating, ending, escalating, ending, escalating along the same point, and it was just hammering home its meaning.

In some ways, it's by the by. I actually found the script, reading the script ending was a lot more of a forward, cohesive experience than the ending of the film itself. The one thing the script did is ended up making a joke of the Flash titles, you know, because we've got the three characters and it kind of introduces their names in these big, bold fonts. And then Monstro Ella Sue is kind of on the screen. And in the film, it's the last one. But at the end of the script, that actually turns into a gag because every version of her that falls off gets its own title card. And in some ways, that actually makes it feel more cohesive to me. But I think what I kind of reacted to in this sequence, what I reacted to was it still tried to give us insight and access to the character.

Definitely.

Of these 60 billion pages you've sent us, Chad. What I picked up on was just after it introduced the text, I actually love that it actually uses the giant font. It uses literal big print in the actual script. and uses like big Helvetica fawn against black in the script to give us that experience. But it's this bit after we've introduced the monster. So she's, she's cloned herself using the technology.

Should we summarize the.

Oh, I thought we, I thought, sorry.

No, we kept, I kept talking. Chaz offered, do you want to summarize it? And I said, I have an opinion instead. So, uh, I, I would be happy to try to summarize this and I'd be curious, curious. It's, It is about a celebrity fitness trainer who is on TV and played by Demi Moore. And she gets older and she gets older. And it's very, very clear they want to replace her. I believe she even gets fired. And she gets a message about the substance, which offers her essentially youth back. And she takes the substance. She injects herself. South. Just kind of throwing herself into the void, no real idea of what's going to happen. And as a result, a younger version of herself crawls out of her back. And there are now two versions of herself, herself and a quote-unquote better younger version of herself. But they are different people, but yet they are the same spirit. And as the movie keeps reminding us and them that you are one, you are one. But you can only be conscious in one, only one body can be conscious at a time. But as the younger version keeps grabbing more and more of her time, she is stealing time from the older version of herself and then mutating her body more and more until she turns into a, you think, the total monstrosity and then uh her younger version of herself until the younger until the older regular monstrosity is like i've had enough and she tries to kill the other version.

Yeah i mean they both try to kill each other so and.

Then she when she realizes yeah they kill each other or try to kill each other.

So so the the the demi moore character is called elizabeth and the younger better version played by margaret qualley is called sue yeah and yeah i mean it's it's a wonderful scene it's.

Even more surreal than the scenario i just gave you.

Yeah i mean surreal is right maybe maybe this film doesn't have subtext because it has because it's surreal it's.

A very dreamlike it's a very dreamlike it's it's edited like a dream it ends like the final final phase of a of a bad nightmare.

Yeah but in amongst all of that in these multiple endings in this long extended sequence where the film ends sue you were observing that the the the big print or the action lines of the script still are trying to put us in the characters understanding or perspective So.

The moment I'm reacting to is we see this vicious, violent fight between Elizabeth and Sue.

Ugh.

Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!

Elizabeth lies dying. Sue kind of goes to do her New Year's Eve party. And that, in a way, acts as a talisman in the film. There's basically a billboard sign, the world's biggest billboard, right out her window. That she always glances to. And it's interesting looking at the script as they've cut dialogue from it. There's these people that call her and stuff. And now she just needs to look at the billboard and we get everything we need from it. Uh, and she goes to the new year's party and she starts literally falling apart. Teeth fall out, her ear falls off. So she comes back with this plan to make a better, younger, younger and better version of herself. And this is the young Sue. So Sue injects herself with the, the substance and we have a horrific thing and she emerges as like a Cronenbergian monster, right? Like straight out of, I was going to say Rick and Morty because the Cronenbergians are in rick and morty but they got their name from someone i don't know who they would call cronenberg after and we get the monster lsu right and so in the script and i love this in the script they have literal big print they've got in giant white text against a black block monster lsu and they use this device uh in the script which i love it is the experience of the film in the script of how impactful those moments are a monstrous vision a being with a hybrid face shapeless and hideous chaotic cellular growth body parts placed haphazardly all the wrong places this is how they describe describe her but then we have a moment when she looks herself in in the mirror and she wipes her mouth and turns her head from right to left as she looks at herself in the mirror she's strangely calm as if this monstrous vision didn't scare her almost fascinating her as if it pleased her as if she was truly seeing herself for the very first time and finally accepting herself. And then it says a little bit later on, because we see her try to get ready for the New Year's Eve party, she has the exact same gestures of vanity as if everything were normal, which is even more weird and scary, giving her completely monstrous appearance. So there's two things going here. There's the subtext for the actor, which is you're going to look at yourself and you're going to accept yourself, even though you're this monster. And then there's this big print, which I understand now what it is. It's this kind of filmmaker storyteller subtext, which is, this is going to be weird and scary because she's acting if everything's completely normal and it isn't. And so it's telling us in the big print. And yes, this is literalism, but it is actually a pretty good indication of the tone she's going for in this end part of the film. And it is fascinating to watch because for me, my experience of this, I didn't get the idea that Monster LSU was accepting herself truly. What I got was the disconnect between her unable to see what she looked like, right? And the weirdness of it, right? And for me, the film didn't completely stick the landing. I was confused by what it was trying to say because it's this idea of she's going through the routine and she is acting like nothing has changed, right? And she goes up on stage. So I guess I did get that from a plot point of view, this idea that she's going to go, that she's not shocked by her hideous anymore.

I'm so happy to be with you tonight.

But then everyone turns around and calls her a freak and attacks her.

The monster! Shoot the monster! It's a freak! No. Shoot the monster! Don't whisper! Monster!

And ultimately she dies on her star and so the film was kind of saying to me that she was wrong to to finally accept herself and that really she should have stayed herself as sue that's kind of the complexity like i wasn't sure what the the meaning of the film was in that contradiction right i mean that's just a personal experience from a writing point of view what i picked up on is it still gave us access to character and it gave us the tonal aspects, the, the, the film make, the storyteller's subtext. He was trying to bring that out on the page. So we understood the tension.

Yeah. And can I, can I highlight one other moment that I thought was excellently written, which was before she converts into the monster, when Sue has murdered Elizabeth and she's gone to the studio and bits are starting to fall off her. And the action lines read, her toothless smile gets bigger and bigger like the black holes of a harmonica, a black hole into hell. She stares down at the three teeth in the palm of her hand, the enormous and bloody roots. It's as if her hidden dark side was suddenly coming to light. So, yes, it's not necessarily playable. It's telling us what the metaphor is. It's telling us, the reader, the meaning that we might not get from screen. But it is what I find interesting. And in a film that's so much about theme, it is still deeply focused in what this means to Sue or to Monstro-Elysis. Eli Sue. um but yeah tom what because i don't think you hadn't seen the substance until i suggested it for this.

Uh topic i i can't remember the chronology but i i i certainly i think it was somewhere around the same time so i either had just seen it or this motivated me to like oh damn we're gonna talk sometime in the next 18 months i need i need to re see this movie, Yeah, I still am, On the fence about this As far as the subtext goes Because I don't think The, Like the filmmaker And what's going on Everything seems to be completely in sync to me And I love it Don't get me wrong I love it But I still feel like, Maybe, um... You know, like there is certainly these moments of like she puts a picture of her old self on her face.

Right.

Like there's clearly and and this is total denial. She's in total denial of what's going on. And but then everyone kind of buys it for like when she enters, like they accept that she has this picture on her face. So that was kind of when like you would think it was when the person crawled out of the other person's back that i would have went oh this is a surreal story but it it really was it it wasn't until like there was just moments of no no obvious emotional truth to it where i went oh this is very dreamlike this is surreal this is this doesn't care anymore this only cares about the raw emotion not necessarily the emotional truth of plot or anything like that so you know like you stew i i did not get the sense of acceptance i got the opposite sense of denial yeah of i will just put a picture on my face and pretend that that's me. And, you know, there's no good reason from a story point of view to just hose down that house with blood and gush other than just punishment. You know, like you're involved in this too. Like the audience is just as at fault for all of this. Not only not only you're applauding but your sudden hatred as well and so everyone here is going to get what they deserve uh because plot wise that it makes no sense you know like there's just there's there's not enough blood in that little body uh but it's like so for me as far as like the subtext goes i definitely lean more into i think this is, I define theme as the ideas and values that are rewarded or punished within a movie and within a story. And that's it. You know, like characters behave a certain way and certain actions are rewarded or certain actions are punished. And whatever those ideas and values that get you to the end is essentially a theme. And if you want to make a thematic statement out of it, you certainly can too. So uh to me this this third act is pure resolution of a thematic statement yeah.

Yeah so that's what you mean by the word punishment she's not i mean she has literally punished them by spying with blood but you're talking about the the consequences of this thematic idea being explored the values ends up in the people that follow those values being punished for those values right is that what do you mean.

Yes rewarded or punished but yeah like you look at her decisions of she was unable to accept herself right like and she was punished for it and in the end all these people uh who put who put this value onto we just want we're going to throw away the old one we want the new one um and so that value is is essentially punished now you could certainly reward that with irony and go well that wins you know like valuing that but they don't really go that way of like it like we've we got rid of the old person and we all were rewarded for it and so like there isn't that thematic statement about yeah that wins that point of view wins always get rid of the old person you know like that's so like i still struggle whereas like with the tarantino scene like that that idea of filmmaker storyteller subtext rings very very true and and it's such a great way to look at it i never looked at it that way before and i really appreciate it this one i still struggle because it's everything is so in line with itself uh thematically that i feel like it's it's broaching into that territory yeah.

I i guess maybe what it is is just irony Right? Irony, the structure, is something that the filmmakers have control over. Right? We have control over tone, but we've got control over irony. So... There's obviously irony at work with Inglourious Bastards. We've got the story in our head of we know who he is. We know she is. You know, so we've got the two stories coming back to where we're in the beginning. Right. And there is a slight disconnect between the story in our head and the story in his head. We're kind of filling the void of it. And here there is irony in which the script is trying to paint for us, which is that she's acting completely normally, even though it's really weird and gross and we can interpret that in in at least two ways which is she's accepting who she is or she's in denial of who she is yeah i don't think there is i don't think the film tells us which one that is i think probably i read it like you was denial i think that's a better word uh even though the script's saying that she's accepted but i feel like that is kind of sitting as a just a tool right like in some ways is a theme or is it subtext, does it matter i'm not sure right like this this.

Is all fun conversation.

Does it really matter like yeah as a story as a as a as a storyteller both as a screenwriter and as a director it's about what tools can i use to create the emotions that i want right and what's interesting is there is kind of an absence of tactics here not quite true like she's definitely trying to not reveal something about her i love that idea of tactics is about not revealing stuff so her tactics is when her teeth are falling out she tries to in the script they cut it out of the movie in the script she tries to glue the teeth back in yeah right so she's trying to not reveal that she's falling apart until she can no longer do that and she goes to go and find a new tactic which is inject herself with substance so there is stuff going on and then i suppose her then dressing herself up in the dress and sticking the face on is this tactic, of my goal is to still do the show. So it's, in there but it's not um there's no oppositional force yeah you know there's no verne that she's trying to convince you know there's no opposition to her like the ad just lets her in as you say i mean i kind of buy that the idea is thank fuck the talent here is just go go go go go go, someone else someone else makeup will deal with this wardrobe will deal with what they turn up with i'm just the ad i get you to sit right yeah okay.

I mean the in the script i can't remember if they've edited it out of the movie, but the AD letting her in is a fantasy. It's what she's imagining happens when she knocks on the door and then it comes back and she's still outside the door and the action line of the script actually calls it out that the fictitious bubble has been burst. But I do think there is an antagonist. The audience is the antagonist, right her tactic is to stand up on stage and say love me the looking the way that i do and she wants them to explain she wants she's trying to explain she's trying to tell them it's still me it's still sue it's still the person that you love yeah and they're they they can't and they they turn on her but that that's getting it's so sort of not the point of what the the text is trying to tell us that like who monster Eliza suit like Sue I think I think you're right it's only after you pointed out to me the biggest contradiction within the story as it's being presented to us is her stapling the face or sticking the face of the Demi Moore of Elizabeth onto her face if she had truly accepted herself and loves what she was seeing she wouldn't. Yeah do that so the i think the script is telling us that monster eliza sue accepts us and i felt watching it that it wasn't so much denial just like it was compulsion like i have to go to the show even though i now right look like this like the the i have no choice so it's interesting that we've all got different reads yeah of that ending so.

Much for obvious Yes.

Yeah, exactly. I was thinking the same thing. For a film that's meant to be literal, we're all like, oh, subtle interpretations. And maybe that was the point of the ending. What they're trying to go for is to escalate into that kind of more what we would, what Chaz and I would call a thematic sequence. That there's kind of like a Brechtian distancing effect that's meant to make us go, what is this all about? What are you trying to say? and have those discussions about, you know, on another level, it's younger Sue. It would have been interesting if it was younger Sue stapling, like she stapled young Sue's, young Sue's, there's only one Sue. Instead of Elizabeth's face, it's Sue's face. So it's, you know, Sue has always been like, I'm the young person, I'm amazing. Suddenly getting the experience of being no longer wanted, right, and desired. But I mean, I think it's the symbolism is there. It's women destroying themselves and their bodies to appease others, you know, appease this kind of patriarchal, misogynistic culture, right? And in the script, and I don't think it's as much in the movie, like Alan in the script clearly gets fired for what he has done. So, as you say, he is punished for the consequences of his decisions, right? But I don't think it changes anything. I mean, maybe that's the cynicism of the script, right? that Alan is now, he's just going to get replaced by someone else. They'll find someone else new and younger to replace Alan.

Yeah.

And they're all just going to forget who Elizabeth is. I mean, I love the symbolism and the imagery of the star that it opens and closes with. The star on the sidewalk, the overhead shock, amazing.

Oh, yeah.

And I think this is part of what makes this film work, is the two previous scenes that we did are very dialogue heavy.

Right?

We're now doing something that's very imagistic. And I think part of what makes its power is that it's... As you say, it's all text, but the text isn't words. It's not what they're saying. The text is in the imagery and the symbolism it's choosing to use.

Yeah.

And still, certainly there's so many memorable scenes in this movie. But the one, my favorite scene is when she can't go out on that date to meet on that date. She can't bring herself to do it. That's the one that really sits with me.

And of.

Like it's how and he was kind of too late at that point but like it would have been a different outcome if she was able to do it.

Yeah definitely because that was so we're talking about a scene where elizabeth the demi moore character has actually bumped into an old i think high school uh friend and he's asked her out on a date and so that is like and.

She decides to call him so that's early on and then she kind of is confronted with people saying you have no value and she realized this is a guy who has specifically said to her you're still the most beautiful person i've ever met.

Yeah so.

She decides to call him in a moment of connection right or seeking connection and we feel hopeful for her yeah.

And then she stands the guy up.

And she she looks amazing she looks great yeah she she can't she can't force herself to leave the apartment despite looking amazing because she can't reach the standards of beauty that she once had and that sue has and it is devastating but you know talking about the argument like if she had accepted herself looking the way she looked and left then she would have been rewarded for for doing so and instead she is punished for buying into the yeah.

That is an amazing scene and that is a scene with with subtext.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Right? Because she can't confront the truth of who she is in that particular scene. And what is interesting is, I mean, we've chosen the ending for a particular reason because it is pushing more into the thematic.

Yeah. And, like, so much of subtext is your fear, you know, of, like, what you don't reveal. And so, like, because we tend to think in terms of tactics as what you want.

Yeah.

Which is true. Like, that's vitally important. But, like, a lot of times the obstacle is your fear. You know like that and what she wanted was a connection but her fear was stronger yeah and and like you were you were it was so painful to watch because you knew like just get over it yeah he's kind of weird like he's not he's not the superstar you normally but like he actually likes you and thinks the world of you yeah uh and she can't she just can't do it.

You're still the most beautiful girl in the whole wide world Okay. Hello. Hi, Fred. It's Lizzie. Hello sorry i mean i'm in shock oh wow wow wow i i thought i'd never hear from you again after oh gosh no no not at all i've just i've just i've just been really busy lately so listen i was thinking that maybe we could get together and grab a drink, are you still there sorry i'm i'm i'm in shock again i could book luigi's at eight eight at luigi's it is i i will see you tonight bye okay bye.

So tom i'm aware that you've got to go in three minutes yes so how we how we normally end this is uh did you take any key learnings from this exercise now acknowledging that we came into this with your tools from your um from your uh blog uh and sorry your newsletter that we will if anyone wants to find tom's newsletter please check out the show notes but did this change or expand your your views that subtext is overrated and it all comes back to character tactics and fear uh.

I have not changed my uh my stance on.

That uh at.

All but to me like these are all good examples of of like how you approach it and each time the story demanded the choices that were made in the scene And, you know, you, like, where's the tension coming from? Is the tension coming from the subtext where, like, thematically? And so I think people get in trouble. We started talking about it. Like, we opened the podcast with, you know, Stu talking about it. Of, like, people, like, I want subtext in my scene. And the scene will tell you if there's going to be subtext. And how you choose to execute the scene will tell you. It is, it is... Your tactic as the storyteller of whether you need subtext or not. Subtext is a result. It's still just a result. But I like your perspective of sometimes we give the audience subtext as filmmakers, as storytellers. We imply a subtext that may not actually be there because of the way we constructed the scene.

Yeah. I'm not sure if I said this on mic or off mic. But where I got to in doing this homework is there's subtext that the characters are aware of. Am I trying to talk about something else than what I'm actually talking about? And then there's the subtext that the filmmakers are in control of. Am I wanting the audience to know that there's something else going on underneath this scene than what the characters may or may not be aware of? Like Hans Lander was completely oblivious to all the subtext of the scene in Inglourious Basterds.

Yes.

And I think focusing on what the audience is aware of coming into the scene is just going to be way more powerful than focusing on the characters. I mean, but maybe that's not fair. That was my understanding coming in. But the Michael Clayton scene, the joy of that scene, why it's so exquisite is purely from the characters and their tactics.

Right. But it's still there for us.

Yeah, definitely.

I mean, which is why we're privy to the scene, which is why we're seeing it.

Yeah.

The most fundamental choice of a storyteller is what scenes are you showing the audience? We show them that scene. We don't show the scene when they're choosing to plant the car bomb, you know, give the decision to kill Michael Clayton, right?

Yeah.

So, I'm going to end with, and I love doing this, this is the car bomb at the end of the episode. I didn't mention it earlier. One of the few good YouTube videos I've seen on subtext, and I would use it for teaching, is from the best screenwriting channel, I think, on YouTube. Because they basically think like how we think, which is called Raising the Stakes. And they've got a video on what is subtext. I may just define it as the gap between explicit meaning and implicit meaning.

It's my buddy Jonathan's chow.

Oh, well, there you go. It's great.

Yeah. Jonathan's fantastic.

And what I like about this presentation is that subtext is a spectrum. If it's just the gap between explicit and implicit meaning, right, it can vary. And so I think the question when someone goes, this scene needs more subtext is actually what that is storytelling questions about not adding more subtext. It's like, what? Maybe it's missing emotional truth, right? Maybe it's missing the reason the characters are choosing to reveal or not reveal information, right? And so, it's going to go back to your characters or it's going to be going back to what the audience knows and therefore, what do we need them to not say? You know if the characters know this do they need to talk about it no but how do we then tell the audience you know i think obviously we didn't answer that question in the podcast we're at the end of it but i think that's kind of what i would be would be thinking about yeah it's not i've ever gotten that note you're.

Not being obvious enough stew.

Yeah i mean that's the that's the dilemma for modern screenwriters now all that term you know people apparently are getting notes of like, you need to make this more obvious. People are watching this while playing with their phones. But that's a discussion for another time.

And sometimes you do. I mean, it is, to me, it's the barrier of emotional truth is the criteria. Make it more obvious is not a bad note. Make it so obvious that you lose emotional truth is a bad note.

Yes. Yeah.

Sometimes being obvious is the emotional truth.

Yeah. Absolutely.

So Tom, I know we're just a couple of minutes over. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing us. If you liked this format, we would love you to come back on. And if you can think of like another topic that you would love to explore with these two random Australians.

Absolutely. Let's grab Jonathan. Yeah.

Oh yeah, that'd be good.

Because you were saying, like, what I think is the best channel on screenwriting on YouTube. And I was thinking, I got to tell him about Raising the Stakes. I had no idea that's who you'd mention. Let's plug his channel in the notes as well. He's great.

Yeah. Well, there you go. And the best newsletter on screenwriting is...

Story and Plot?

Storyandplot.com.

There you go. And i agree well.

Thank you thank you so much thank.

You gentlemen thanks for getting up early.

I know what to do with myself.

Well i i'm going back to bed that's what i'm doing, i've told my kids they can watch all the sunday morning tv they want i'm going back to bed, but uh tom yes absolutely thank you thanks as always to our amazing patrons who bring you more draft zero more often and who in fact weighed in heavily on the homework michael clayton was selected by tom but the other two were uh particularly the inglorious bastards uh scene was a was a patreon pick so you two can pick our homework pick our topics and uh and generally tell us how you feel uh more directly than than other other forums uh but in particular thanks to our top tier patrons who truly bring you more Draft Zero more often. Alexandra, Jenny, Jesse, Krob, Lily, Millay, Paolo, Randy, Sandra, Theis, and Thomas. Thank you so much, guys.

I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on this episode or anything in general. And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com. At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes, as well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Very important for spreading the word. Or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar or preferably more than a dollar, then you can also find links to our Patreon page to support us getting these episodes to you quicker. Thanks. And thanks for listening.