DZ-115: A Christmas Special – Rewatching & Rituals — Transcript

They were kidnapping all of these, like, you know, young, poor people from England to take on the boats on all these trips to Shanghai because then they didn't have to pay them. That is, off the top of my head, my understanding of where the term came from.

Ah, okay. That sounds awful.

Okay.

Hi, I'm Stu, and I'm back.

And I'm Mel Killingsworth.

And I'm Chas Fisher, and welcome to DraftZero, a podcast where emerging filmmakers try to work out what makes great screenplays work, except today we are not doing that. We are doing our annual treat to ourselves, which we put into the category of back matter, where we don't have any thesis or empirical analysis or examples, except we have all three of those today.

Our annual treat for ourselves.

I love a structure, love a list. Give me some homework.

Okay. We're going to do holiday movies. And this started because friend of the podcast, Luke, who's extremely kind of a scheduled person, he's got a meal planner that he plans months in advance. And he actually has historical data to make sure he's not repeating meals too much. He's that kind of person. And he literally put on a holiday movie and set up the decorations on the 1st of December. He's that kind of person. And I went, oh, you know what we should do? we should do holiday movies the kind of films that we re-watch at the holiday period to work out and the thesis is what makes them so re-watchable and i guess then the secondary question is what makes them a holiday movie so we're going to be looking at we all picked one film so i picked kiss kiss bang bang you.

Stole my picks you because you were originally going to do die hard and then i was going to do kiss kiss bang bang i.

Just want to point out die hard kiss kiss Bang Bang and Riders of Justice, like this could have been the most podcasty list ever.

And very bro-y too. So you've come in to save us, Mel.

You're being redundant.

Maybe next year we'll do, you know, Love Actually, The Holiday, and I'm trying to think.

First of all, all Stone Cold classics, the fact that you can't immediately pull another, though, has me a little worried. And this is my, I'm going to spoil my thesis up front, we need to watch, as a society, more of those types of movies every Christmas.

But we haven't even said what your pick is yet, Mel.

We haven't even said what your pick is, all you said was that we stole your pick.

Writers of Justice, it's been mentioned twice.

It could have easily be Mel's pick. Okay.

And Mel, what was your pick?

I went with It's a Wonderful Life. So I tossed a few others around, but I distinctly wanted sort of looking, once we had several others in the mix, none of them were sort of a quote unquote traditional Christmas movie. And so I said, you know, I really want to go that route specifically. And I hadn't rewatched this probably in about two years. I definitely rewatched it two years ago because I remember having a very distinct argument about it. But yeah, I thought something traditional, something. And also none of these movies, these movies are all sort of in somewhat different eras of film in general, which I think you can sort of tell. So I wanted to have a traditional one that wasn't like Love Actually, which would have come out, you know, much more around the time of Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. I wanted to separate it a little more chronologically as well.

Very good. And I just, as much as we have the thesis and as much as we want to try and wax lyrical on why these films may or may not be holiday movies and what makes them rewatchable, I just wanted to like warn our listeners that it really will be waxing lyrical. Like we have not, we're not setting out with this. Podcast to learn craft tools to how to write a great holiday movie but hopefully we pick up some learnings on the way.

The learnings are the friends we made along the way i.

Mean i've definitely got stuff though.

Yeah same actually and i didn't go into it with anything specific but i think in revisiting all three of them sort of close together and chatting about it a little bit i've come away with things all.

Right i'm just gonna like shit all over the theses so So I'll be the stew of this podcast.

Really? That's what you think of me?

No, you don't do it in podcast format. It's you as a Discord admin.

We know where to send him now.

Ah, yes. All right. So what makes a holiday movie for you, Chaz? Let's get going. I've got a feeling you're going to have a lot stricter requirements than me.

No, strangely not. So, I mean, I Googled, you know, and came up with an article about the seven things that a holiday movie must have. And I was just like, well, this is a lot of horseshit. But it's useful to have a list for the purposes of discussion. And the list was using the holiday tropes. Atmosphere was one of them. And I was like, fucking hell. Anyway, family, redemption, hope, magic, and nostalgia were the seven items that they included.

They ain't never seen Bad Santa.

Definitely has atmosphere and it has a redemption.

Yes, but no redemption.

Oh, it does.

Oh, no. I think it – okay. Anyway.

We'll watch Bad Santa for next year.

It's going to be love, actually.

The holiday, that's it. I did when you said, oh, let's do holiday movies. I'm like, do you mean holiday movies or do you mean Christmas movies? Because Christmas movies are a subset, I think, of holiday movies. You know, Halloween, Thanksgiving, and New Year's movies are all...

Noir-vember movies.

My favorite holiday of the year, it lasts 30 days.

But I think we do have to kind of acknowledge our... Cultural background here which is obviously sublimely clear to all our listeners but you know we're not talking like diwali movies or ramadan movies or you know when we say a holiday movie we're referring to judeo-christian.

Well okay okay okay hang on hang on a second because this.

Is the back matter part.

You can have holiday movies right that are about ramadan that are about easter that are about whatever which is why i do think christmas movies being this subset yeah What's fascinating is that the term Judeo-Christian, specifically outside of America, I think really is antithetical to literally Christmas movies. Like, it is explicitly not a thing. The U.S. has attempted to make it a thing, like Judeo-Christian, but that term is antithetical to Christmas. Yeah, unless I'm using it in the American attempt to build its own secondary, very political thing, I just think you can't use it in connection to any of these movies.

I'm with Mel. Judea Christian is a very politically loaded term that serves a particular agenda that comes from an American context.

I'm more than happy to put the term to one side, but I guess we're talking generally about movies that happen to be grouped near the end of the year that often in Northern Hemisphere terms are in, you know, from fall through to winter.

Look, I think that's what's interesting about the cultural context here is, Mel, you grew up in the States, so for you, winter was cold Christmas.

There's snow. It's dark at five. It's cold.

You know, Chaz, did you have much of a white Christmas growing up?

That kind of- Up until I was eight. Not white, because I was in Dorset, so it was rainy Christmas.

Whereas when I grew up, you know, my grandparents lived in a place called Foster, which was like the north coast of New South Wales. And, you know, and our summers there are like 40 degrees in a canvas annex, you know, sweating our balls off eating prawns and the freshest oysters you'll ever find. Because someone's just like plopped them off the oyster farm that morning, you know. So, for me, it's got this interesting duology that my media relationship with the Christmas season is media that portrays winter, right? And all the films that we have set are set in the Northern Hemisphere, right? Whereas my lived experience is summer. And so, I've got this weird kind of escapism around Christmas movies being wintry. Yeah.

And the reason why I tried to lay that groundwork rather poorly and set off almost a political debate inadvertently is I think culturally this time of year, most- industries in the western world tend to close down families tend to get together it's a time of reflection renewal all that kind of stuff so there's other like deeper undercurrents i think that holiday movies tend to dwell in separate to any kind of uh you know tropes or traditions.

Okay i'm gonna pick up on that and i'm just gonna launch into my thesis the reason i think re-watchability is interesting when we're talking about holiday movies in general or specifically christmas movies is we're actually talking about rituals we are talking about traditions we're talking about rituals people think about watching these movies as ritualistic right and therefore to me it's about those films bringing forward emotions that you want to address in a ritual kind of way right and therefore re-watchability i think is actually the key component of a. Christmas movie or a holiday movie that people are happy to watch it consistently yeah and i will say for me it doesn't actually have to be said at christmas i have associations that i have at christmas so for example i would actually say the lord of the rings films to me can be christmas movies because for a period of time i was literally what i was doing every boxing day was getting up and seeing the first session of lord of the rings and even when they finished the the trilogy over those three years every year they seemingly bring them back and i would go and watch them and even now, I would consider watching the entire Lord of the Rings extended editions between Christmas and New Year, right? And look, hey, it's set in winter, but it's got a couple of other components that I think all three films have, which is it does have ensemble. It has family, right? It has big emotions. It does have kind of like brings out a sense of reflection. So I think that list that you give, like there's some things I didn't like, but that element of nostalgia, I definitely think is part of it. Tradition is connected to nostalgia my friend friend of the podcast damien is doing his phd quite literally on nostalgia in television content so he can correct us on our understanding of nostalgia so i think there's family i think there is that sense of hope i think there is that sense of reflection right are all part of it but i also think there's probably is a secret sauce these which is what i wanted to get into it which is what makes it rewatchable why are we happy to go and turn these things on again.

And for me, I think your tradition around them makes that a Christmas tradition, but it doesn't make them Christmas movies, right? Like people have Christmas traditions of eating, you know, prawns or of listening to a specific thing or going to the beach on Boxing Day or the test cricket or whatever. And that is a Christmas tradition, but that doesn't make those things inherently Christmas.

Why?

Because when you're talking about a Christmas tradition, association that's very personal like your your reasoning is very personal um and to and for some people they would say well christmas doesn't have anything to do with family what are you talking about like my christmas is is me sitting alone with my cat and doing these things like oh ideally it's not inherently christmas you sitting alone.

With my cat at christmas.

That's that's um if.

You're free by the way.

Wow this is just like i'm gonna shanghai bell when they can't get away is that racist.

I was having the same.

Thoughts too is it right i think it's if i recall correctly it's something like the mexican wave where you hear the term and you think oh that's really racist and then when you look it up it is actually not unlike the term irish.

Goodbye which when you learn what the term is you're like oh that is racist.

Right like like yeah mexican wave i i could be wrong i think that neither i know that mexican wave is not i'm pretty sure that shanghai is explicitly not it's about the english sailors when they were going to shanghai and then they would take and how they would kidnap people of of all races but mostly lower class white people to to take with them to shanghai oh.

Okay so it's just a it's a flippant turn they.

Were kidnapping all of these like you know young poor people from from england to take on the boats to on all these trips to shanghai because then they didn't have to pay them that is off the top of my head my understanding where the term came from oh.

Okay that sounds awful okay so i i i'm interested in debating this with you because it's like, oh, it can be personal, but that stuff is kind of like cultural and it could be culturally within your family. And other than it being set at the time of the year, I mean, it feels like for a lot of people that is, you know, in Fellowship of the Ring, they set out on the 25th of December, therefore, I don't know if it's true, Fellowship of the Ring is a Christmas movie. That stuff isn't important to me, but it's seemingly the key criteria around a lot of people debating, who's the diehard Christmas movie is, it's set at Christmas. And therefore there is the cultural aspects, Ornaments, Christmas trees, Christmas carols, all that stuff. The external signifies of it.

I think it needs a bit more than that for Maeve to be a Christmas movie.

I think that to you is what Christmas means to you, Mel. I think for Australians, the Australian Christmas movies, of which we have picked none, are probably picking up on more of the Australian traditions of watching Cricket on Boxing Day. I know that's not specifically Christmas Day, but it is part of the Australian.

I just think the film needs to explicitly reference Christmas, and that's still pretty broad. I think none of these are Christmas movies only because they take place at Christmas. They all explicitly reference Christmas, some to more extent than others.

I'm willing to, and I don't want to segue us out of this initial discussion, but on the spectrum of is it a Christmas movie or just a movie that happens to be set at Christmas, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is... Almost only just set at Christmas.

There's a lot of explicit Christmas references in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, not just the decor, like when they go to the party, right, at Corbin Bernson's house, I forget his character's name. It is explicitly a Christmas party. There's a lot of explicit Christmas settings. They reference Christmas within the plot. Also, Michelle Monaghan running around in a sexy Santa outfit for a good part of the movie and talking about Christmas cheer. Like there's explicit references within it. In fact, you could argue that it's probably more of a Christmas movie than Die Hard, which I also, for the record, argue is a Christmas movie.

I think there's more Christmas references to it. But I guess I think and this is tipping my own hand, but I don't have movies as part of my Christmas rituals. I watch a lot of Christmas movies, but I don't rewatch the same ones. I watch new ones every year. So I don't have the ritual association. So what I'm looking for in those movies isn't, I'm still looking for that connection to what I want to feel. I'm trying to align my, you know, emotional inputs to what I'm wanting to feel at this time of year. And so I guess from that list, I am looking for films that are more about redemption, hope, family and nostalgia, like out of that list, those ones, if those themes are pulled out of a movie, I feel a lot more Christmassy.

Do you not find redemption within Kiss Kiss Bay?

Oh, no, I do. I do. And we can have this debate when we get to it.

No, no, no. I was just curious.

I was going to say, like, I do think we should say some of this discussion for the meat of the films. But I just want to top onto the ritual thing and the rewatchability because what you're talking about is I certainly know there was a period in my life when I watched Love Actually while wrapping presents, right? And I think for a lot of people, the rewatchability is actually connected to the fact that they can kind of do other things, that they can sit with their friends and drink wine and do, you know, Kris Kringle or whatever while the film is playing on the background and it's something they're really familiar with. So you don't have to pay full attention to it. And that's really not how I watched all these three films. It was my first time watching It's a Wonderful Life, though, of course, I've seen Writers of Justice once before for our excellent Ensembles episode, a Gist Bang Bang I own, and I've seen it many times. I saw it at the cinemas, and I could easily put it on in the background myself, but I didn't. But there's things that I think it does that actually make it a good film in that sense of a tradition of, Can I put it on my wrapping presents?

I mean, just to just to be clear, I will rewatch Alien or Seven or The Dark Knight many more times than I will rewatch any single Christmas movie. So I'm glad we're limiting it to Christmas movies and not rewatchability in general, because I was a bit lost there for a moment. I'm like, I've rewatched Riders of Justice three times in the last three years. But I think that's recency sort of like wanting to re-experience that. I could say the same for everything, everywhere, all at once. So it's like, what is the experience that I'm looking for in a movie at this time of year? And that's why I was like trying to lay the cultural groundwork.

I think that's important that that kind of you're looking to tap into an emotion that you associate with the emotions of Christmas. But I think this, I'm speculating this is true, that if you're watching, you know, if you're into hardcore Easter movies, you know, if you're into watching The Passion of the Christ Jazz every year, It's because you're looking for a particular emotional experience at that time to connect you with what you understand that period of time to be about, right?

And while I think all of these three are rewatchable, I actually think that they are rewatchable with almost no, with about somewhat and with incredibly strong connection to Christmas as a holiday, respectively.

Agreed.

Okay, so I'll say my thing about Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and then we'll go into it. But I just want to say tapping onto the tradition, one of the things that I think makes Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang rewatchable, but also work in that context of can I be sitting there wrapping presents is this heavy use of narration and dialogue. Like it's got some great visual comedy, but I think the fact that it is to use a term that I picked up at uni, which is like, it's a little bit of a radio play with pitches. Like, there is this sense of you can listen to it while doing something else and still have a great time.

And very dialogue heavy as well.

But it doesn't just have to be dialogue. I think Die Hard, you know, we're not talking about it, but like Die Hard having everyone humming Ode to Joy kind of helps that audio experience of it. So, you don't have to be paying fully attention to the screen. This is not true of Writers of Justice, given it's in a language I do not speak. Anyway, kiss, kiss, bang, bang.

Harry was a small-time crook Oh boy Till he opened the door Oh no, no, we're not ready for your audition Just take him, he's ready You ready, right? To a really big break Quit acting like the good guy You got your partner killed You killed him What? See, this is what I'm talking about Old school method Get me Gabe Perry on the phone But he'll need a real cop Detective lessons tomorrow for your acting Oh Are you the, uh, consultant? If he wants to act the part You must be... Gay Perry? Still gay? Me? No. I just like the name so much, I can't get rid of it. I got rid of it. You threw it away. Look up idiot in the dictionary. You know what you'll find? A picture of me? No. The definition of the word idiot. Ow! That starts with a kiss. Why'd you lie to me? It was an excuse to stay around you, so I mean, I think... Ow! Did I just cut off your finger? Yeah. It's on the floor. Pick it up. Pick it up. And ends with a bang. Where is the girl? You put a live round in that gun. Oh, yeah. There was like an 8% chance. Who taught you math?

I'm going to summarize Kiss Kiss Bang Bang because it's my movie that I picked.

It was my movie that you stole. You were doing Die Hard.

This is the Secret Santa version of Back Matter.

What is it? The bad Santa? How do you play it? The secret Santa where you get to steal the person before he's present?

To be honest, that's the only way I've pretty much ever played it. All right.

I'm just going to read the Letterboxd summary because there's not one on Wikipedia. Wikipedia has a long plot summary because Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is kind of a rom-com and a hard-boiled murder mystery with a bit of a Christmas movie thrown in.

It's on my Noir at Christmas list, which is extensive.

And that does mean it's got a convoluted plot. So I think this summary from Letterboxd is the easiest way to summarize it if you haven't seen it before, but you really should, which is a petty thief posing as an actor, which is Robert Downey Jr., is brought to Los Angeles for an unlikely audition, and he finds himself in the middle of a murder investigation at the instigation of his high school dream girl and the detective who's been training him for his upcoming role. And so the high school dream girl is michelle mohanahan i just bushered her name sorry and val kilmer who plays gay perry is the detective who's been training him and they're kind of being implicated in a case and then quickly the two separate places become the one case that's kind of it but robert downey jr narrates the whole thing and in fact they kind of hang the hat on it with him saying i'm the only narrator here you know by.

Now you may wonder how I wound up here. Or maybe not. Maybe you wonder how Silly Putty picks shit up from the comic book's point is. I don't see another goddamn narrator, so pipe down.

We did talk about doing this for our narration because he's the omnipotent narrator. Where is it coming from in this point of time, et cetera. You know, we can plug that series here, but he narrates the whole thing being very meta about the whole thing. Oh, yes, I know. Don't we hate it when the movies do the thing where everything shows up the line, but this one time it really happened. So he's very meta and very cognizant of the tropes that are being played with and very self-aware of the whole time i.

Mean that moment where he's got the scene going this scene's kind of bullshit.

I apologize that is a terrible scene it's like why was that in the movie gee you think maybe it'll come back later maybe i hate that a tv's on talking about the new power plant hmm wonder where the climax will happen or that shot of the, Sorry.

And that scene is in Portoleta, and he is right that that scene is written a little bit twee. When you're watching it, you're like, oh, this scene's a little bit twee. And then you're like, ah, that's why, because they're trying to make that connection.

Lampshade.

They're lampshading it because they actually kind of have to because the plot is convoluted. And it is very dealing with noir tropes. You know, it's got a little incest in there, sexual abuse. Like, there's a lot of stuff in this that is heavy, and it's heavy in the same way the writers of justice is heavy. They both have references to sexual assault and obviously a lot of violence. I mean, Die Hard is a lot of violence too.

Yeah, so Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and obviously the chapter titles are all Chandler books. And so it's doing things in a Chandler tradition, but also in the way that a lot of Chandler's films were adapted into books, including the voiceover. And Chandler's books deal with all of those typical noir things. And so, so does the film, you know, with being betrayed and with murder and with, you know, sex and the stymieing thereof and all of those sorts of things are in here as well.

So, my question, I'm just going to start with the, why do I find this film rewatchable, right? And I think there's a couple of elements. I actually think the convoluted plot makes it rewatchable because I'm always going, oh, I forgot that happened.

I agree.

100%.

I had that same experience with Die Hard. There's actually a lot going on Die Hard. And when I rewatch it at Christmas, I'm always like, oh yeah, I forgot how tight the mechanics of this plot are and how much complexity is in there. I think this has got, because it's a mystery, has more complexity in there. And there's a little bit more of those Easter eggs, like as you say, the Raymond Chandler chapter titles. But there's even stuff earlier on when Michelle's character Harmony is like at this Christmas party. Such birthday? Is it a birthday party or is it a Christmas party?

Christmas party.

Okay.

I thought it was for the daughter.

Yeah.

There's Christmas trees and tinsel and all that sort of stuff around. And then there's the suggestion that he threw the party because they've just reconnected. And so the idea was like, and they're all industry people. They're not her friends. They're all industry people. So like the party is for her, but it's not really. It was just the party he was planning on throwing anyway. And she happens to be there.

Yeah. And so all that stuff's in there. I mean, even when I put it on last night, I forgot how great the cold open was. And so to remind you, it starts off these kids at like a country fair and it's a kid in a box and a young like eight-year-old. It's like, oh, I'm going to, for my next amazing trick, I'm going to cut this girl in half.

And now for my shocking finale. Not for the squeamish. Not for the faint of heart.

With a chainsaw. Not just a saw, a chainsaw.

And they start cutting it and she screams and screams and screams and everyone panics and the guy with the chainsaw's trying to get it out of there and it ends with the button and the whole thing is.

I'm going to be in the app.

And it's such a great cold opening. And even though if I've forgotten it.

The button is actually, yes, she says that. But the button is that as soon as her dad realizes that that's what happened, he rears back and hits her in public in front of everyone.

I think it actually frees frames before it comes.

He swings and it cuts before he connects. But it's quite clear that he's slapped her.

Yeah. And that's setting up the fact that she ran away at 16. And this is what I mean about the complexities that you remind yourself of as you watch it. So that's one of the reasons I watch it. Two, I love the chemistry between Harmony, Gay Perry, and Harry. Their dynamic is amazing. Gay Perry is a fantastic character, right? Val Kimmer gives a great performance. He's dry. An American who's sarcastic. You forget how refreshing that is.

You mean successfully sarcastic.

Yes.

Ouch. Good God.

When you're successfully sarcastic, Mel, we claim you as Australian. And when Paul is sarcastic, we, like, remind you that you're a dirty foreigner.

Fair.

True. So those big elements. And I think the fact that we mentioned it earlier. So there's this sequence where Gay Perry jumps in front of Harry, takes some bullets, right? And he lays down. And we think he's going to open his thing, like, and reveal he's wearing a bulletproof vest. After all, I think that's a beat in Lethal Weapon, which Shane Black also wrote. And here it's like, no, he kind of gives him to mouth to mouth. And he's got blood coming out. And you're like, oh, my God. You know? And you never come back to Gay Perry. And then there's a sequence at the end in the epilogue where you reveal that he's alive. And they kind of, again, lampshade or hang the hat on the fact that he's alive. We can bring everyone back. But I think that's part of the success is that this is a film that deals with a lot of dark shit and finds a hopeful ending.

Yeah.

And I think, to me, in some ways, maybe the reason that I like this and I like Writers of Justice is, particularly as I've grown older, I'm like, like i'm a little bit cynical enough that that twee christmas movies can just read as insincere whereas what stuff that's darker but has hope is a little bit i mean not that my life is you know murder and incest and anything any of that stuff in it but it reminds me that there could be hope during dark times and i i think that's part of what makes it work for me great visual storytelling a lot of surprising moments. The comedy is so good that even some of those gags, even if you know what they are, they're just done so well that you're like, it doesn't matter. Even though they're kind of, the film talks about like, oh, once you've heard the joke, it stops being funny the second time. But I don't think that's true with Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. Like the physical humor, Continues to be funny because it's so well executed that you admire the execution. The dialogue is really clever. The playfulness of the form. All that stuff makes it really rewatchable for me. And the Christmas elements are very consistent. I actually think that in some ways this feels more Christmassy than Writers of Justice. So, yeah, that's the elements that I would say has the ensemble. It doesn't have a nostalgia element to it, but I think the film is tapping into nostalgia. It's about the dream girl and accepting the fact that people are fucked up and all those kinds of things i think it's interesting to remember this is a robert danny jr before he was iron man before he was redeemed that him being a fuck up was actually part of why he was in this role you know the film is interesting because it does have this kind of 2000s slight homophobia that actually feels quite progressive what struck me on this rewatch wasn't the kind of homophobia in there because I'm like, ah, it feels kind of the era, right? It was actually the kind of like misogyny that is connected to hard-boiled stuff. Like all that kind of stuff just feels a little bit, still feels a little bit icky for me.

The thing with noir is like noir's history of racism and homophobia and misogyny are so thick that if you're playing in that pool, you're going to have elements of that in it. And so I think the big difference being characters being it versus the story being it, like you're not going to get people who are nasty fuck-ups who don't use some of the terms that they use whether or not you know you think that that's uh something that should be in movies is very different of saying like oh this film's endorsing that no these characters are simply who they are like none of these are good people yeah.

I mean that and that works and i think harry having the world view that he has is consistent and the film actually gives him shit for it which is there's That moment he gives the whole speech about like the whole, it's like they shook America by the East Coast and all the normal girls. Who he hates, hates Harry right now. And everyone puts up their hand because you're like, yeah, he's kind of a dick. And it does feel like, so it does feel like it's coming from character rather than a mouthpiece of the filmmaker. I mean, Shane Black wrote and directed it. And that is kind of part of his, I call it smarm core. He's kind of got like all his stuff is kind of smarmy. He's just part of the aesthetic, you know, femme fatales, all of them. The fact that Harry's saying a lot of incel talking points, you know, 15 years before that became a thing is just kind of interesting. And I've done a lot of talking. Why do other people rewatch this film?

I mean, I agree with you. For me, I do think that Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is a Christmas movie because of all of the Christmas signposts it has. But what makes it rewatchable is not the Christmas elements. Like that's sort of what makes it rewatchable are all of the structure. The fact that like a lot of good noir mysteries, you forget exactly how things get solved. You might remember like who the bad guy is, but you don't remember how they figure it out or what leads them to that or how they get out of certain jams and then you're watching it and you go oh of course like this is how but and then all of that is driven then by the chemistry of the the three leads and you know you've got the the noir-ish neo-noir you know snappy dialogue and i'm also a sucker for you know movies that are about movie making which this one is both explicitly because you know they're in hollywood he's only been brought out there you know because colin Farrell was asking too much money so they they brought him out to test blah blah blah so it's about making movies that way but it's also meta about making movies the way that he pauses on a frame frame and you see the old school like vcr roles while he's talking about oh this this scene and feels a little chintzy or later when he says oh yeah do you think the bringing up a power plant is going to be important later like all of the the meta ways it's about movie making oh it makes it very rewatchable yeah.

And they talk about like how they's got to have a big ending i mean it's almost adaptation in that style where they talk about the ending needing him to need to be tortured and then he kills like 16 guys and he gets tortured and i'm pretty sure he kills 16 guys i haven't counted but i kind of do stuff when they bring it up and i start i mean this is part of the rewatchable element of it i.

Start counting.

And then i actually get caught up in the action i've never sat down and gone does he kill 16 guys.

I was watching the derringer i was like oh yes i remember this comes up later how exactly i don't remember and then you get to that scene oh this is how and then you're watching Val Kilmer's performance of how he's you know luring him in and it teases it out all of that sort of stuff and like this is Shane Black's first directing you know he'd written a bunch of movies before this and so he perfected a lot of the the swarm core as Sue says and so I think the rewatch ability comes from all of those things that he really honed in in scripts afterwards. Happens to be in my opinion and not jazz as a christmas movie but the rewatchability is not tied to that in any way shape or form other than again the michelle monigan in the you know skimpy santa suit which your knowledge may vary yeah.

And i think it does have a few christmas carols in there but not.

It does no it has christmas music it has uh in fact the score has a lot of christmas carol motifs that run yeah yeah um there's a lot of christmas decoration there's of course um i I mean.

The plot engine is kicked off by the fact that Harry is robbing a toy store to get his nephew or niece.

Never see the kid.

Never see the kid, but to get them a Christmas present. Right. And then that ends up him being chased by police and he runs into an audition. And that's some of the filmmaking tongue in cheek where the cop is like, oh, good luck. I love that performance. It's like a one-line, one of those one-line scenes that you're like, oh, there's a lot in that little beat where you're like, the cop's like, ooh, I probably wanted to be an actor too. And now I'm a cop in LA, you know, the city of broken dreams kind of stuff, which is why I think Christmas is a setting that really works for this because it is about the hope and the kind of like the surface levelness of Christmas and the superficiality of LA and all that kind of stuff connects to me. Like it suits and the neon, like they bring out all the neon signage and all that kind of stuff really helps the neo-noir mood and the kind of, the way it's kind of connected to the superficiality of Los Angeles and the way that Christmas is treated superficially, like all these Christmas parties and stuff. None of them have anything to do with, you know, the meaning of Christmas. It's just an excuse for a party and for people to be semi-naked and dressed as reindeers or whatever the fuck they are in that little performance stuff, right? I think it's thematically woven in there, but yeah, it's not about the quote-unquote meaning of Christmas. In fact, it's about the commercialization of it. Go on.

I was actually going to push back slightly on both of you, even though I agree with both of you, in that I do think what is rewatchable about it is not necessarily the holiday aspects of it. And I think while it signposts Christmas, possibly... More than any of the three films that we're watching, because a lot of It's a Wonderful Life doesn't take place at Christmas. It's only the final.

No, but it opens with it. So, it is definitely bookended. It opens on Christmas Eve.

I'm trying to establish a metric here, because my feeling is that Writers of Justice is way more of a Christmas movie than Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, and more than Die Hard, and way more than Iron Man 3, which also I think commits this particular crime out of Shane Black's over the most of just being like I'm going to set this at Christmas because I like Christmas shit not that it had.

Any impact the nice guys makes the it's not set at Christmas until the end and then he sets it explicitly at Christmas to still make his movie the Christmas movie so I think maybe one beats it out but.

I agree with everything that you guys have said that the the complexity of the plot every time I rewatch it it keeps me engaged because I know who the baddie is and I know how everyone ends up at the end but I every time I rewatch I've got no idea how they get it every time that he pees on the corpse I'm like oh fuck.

Yeah he pees on the corpse like.

The the humor is so transgressive and the one thing that got me kind of through the the homophobia at Gay Perry is that they then call out that he manages to get out of a situation because of the Derringer it's like homophobes never search for his derringer.

They're afraid of being called a fag right that's the well right you have the reclaiming of the language but it is language that especially then you know 20 years ago would have been regularly used and i think homophobia is a strong term for the movie i think the only person who explicitly uh exhibits homophobia is that one guy uh that he's taunting yeah in the torture scene i.

Mean harry has a very visceral reaction to being kissed by.

To being kissed against his will by somebody that he's like obviously you have the oh but it's also i think it's a lot more than that he also has that a similar reaction to waking up in bed with um with harmony's friend you know he really does he freaks out and like gets out of bed and then it's like oh my god i can't believe i i kissed the ugly one i mean the like not as attractive you know So, I think, yes, obviously that's an element, but it's certainly not explicitly deemed.

It's pretty interesting to me that Val Kilmer, for a quote-unquote straight man, has played two absolute gay icons. Him and Iceman. Actually, maybe more.

I was going to say, I think there's more, but yeah, absolutely.

Mad Meldigan from Willow.

Good for him.

Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Matt Paddington is in a dress for most of Willow.

I was going to come back to this. I think that- I mean, the first half of the movie, I'd completely forgotten that this was set at Christmas. Like, they really lean into the L.A. Sort of L.A. and winter vibe. And then when someone, I think when Perry first tries to get rid of Harry, says Merry Christmas as he's saying goodbye, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. This is at Christmas. And that was before the party with the Santa hats and performance artists. So I think the film is going to great lengths to remind us that it's set at Christmas throughout. Um but the ending of the film is what more than die hard and more than iron man 3 and i'm comparing to other shane black films that are set at christmas but it's the long.

Kiss goodnight also set at.

Christmas yep there you go except.

And that i actually was going oh long kiss.

Goodnight i want to rewatch that yeah.

Yeah yeah also very explicitly set at christmas in a way in the same way this is and very rewatchable.

But this is about three individual characters who need redemption and achieve it i think possibly gay perry less than harmony and harry but they also find a family in each other in the three of them they're three very lonely isolated people who through their various wounds come together through this story so i think that how the ending is brought together, very much leans into very Christmas themes that these guys discover the family they need and through each other can lead more wholesome, fruitful lives.

I don't think anyone's going to lead a wholesome life.

No, no.

Yeah.

Their version of that, I guess. Fulfilling?

There is a sense of redemption. It's an interesting choice that it's Gabe Perry that confronts Harmony's father, right?

Yeah.

I just think that's an interesting choice. I'm not sure that he's the spirit of vengeance, but in a way, it kind of works because Harry probably would have just killed him, I think, at this point.

Harry has a personal reason for doing it right, though, and I think Gabe Perry doing it shows. I think it's two things. I'd venture a guess that there, especially, again, 20 years ago, that when you have this sort of character who is clearly a bit of a murderous bastard, admits that he is that, you know, like, that that's his job. He's like, I'm not a nice guy, I do all these things, and is gay. That there is a little bit of the going out of their way to show, because a lot of tropes in media and as well as very much in real life are when you are talking about child abuse and specifically child sexual abuse, that is a homophobic trope. And so when you have an explicitly gay character who's not a good guy, and you go out of your way to say, hey, just because he's gay does not mean that he's okay with child abuse. I actually think that there's a little bit of a statement there in who they're choosing to mete out that justice, which I do appreciate.

Yeah, no, particularly in the American context, because it does feel like that is a correlation.

It's a huge correlation.

All right, speaking of child sexism, no, we're not going to use that as the transition to Riders of Justice.

No, we aren't. And I do find it interesting that 20 years later, we find films that can use that trope without worrying that it is then an explicitly homosexual thing, which Riders of Justice does, which I think fascinating.

Yeah. So speaking of getting justice. Yes!

Why do you say that it wasn't an Ulyk? He's here. He's on the station seconds before Ulykken came. Kurt, Tandem, Olesen. He's the president of the Riders of Justice. It was an attentat. First. No, it's not.

Um all right so this is mine so i guess i have to summarize writers of justice even though podcast listeners i mean mel and i try to evangelize this movie because, as much as it feels like a fairly obscure danish movie it is just so freaking entertaining, while also being to my mind a sublime christmas movie and i'm going to start with why i think it's a holiday movie first and then go into rewatchability but the it's got much less Christmas trappings than then Kiss Kiss Bang Bang despite being set in a Scandinavian winter, there's basically there's the book ending which is about I didn't realize the grandfather was a priest until this my third rewatch that I noticed he's actually in robes and has an enormous crucifix I.

Just assumed that they were going for that as a vibe as opposed to because you know how like Neo in the sequels as a coat that's cut in the same way.

So the plot is kicked off by a Christmas present theft and the movie's book ended that way. And there's very little reference to Christmas for the rest of the movie until the end. And similarly to Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, like the comparisons keep coming, there's characters who you assumed were dead that actually survive and live. So in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Val Kilmer's Gabe Harry, we assume that character's dead and then they have to hang a hat on the fact that he's survived this. And then Writers of Justice, which I probably should summarize before I talk about the fucking ending, but ends in a Christmas scene with the main character who we literally saw die a cinema death. Like he was holding his daughter and saying he's cold and then like goes silent and keels over. And then next time we see him he's wearing a christmas jumper um but i'll talk about why i love that in a sec but basically um in writers of justice it's about two groups of people both impacted by a train accident you've got um mads mickelson's uh family his his wife is killed in the train accident and his daughter was on the train and and uh saw her mother die and separately you've got Otto who is a I guess a statistician certainly an academic trying to create an algorithm that can predict the future and then you have Otto's associated colleagues who've worked on this algorithm and Otto his colleagues are Lennart and Emmentaler. And those two groups are brought together by Otto's use of statistical analysis to determine that the train accident could not possibly have been an accident. And then Mads Mikkelsen being a definitely suffering uh uh active soldier uh then go and use the um the excuse that the train accident was instead a murder attempt on someone testifying against the bikey gang riders of justice to try and take out said riders of justice and the plot kind of all unfurls from that and it's about those two groups sort of coming together and uh and living together um and becoming a family which is why it's a freaking christmas movie is that every single character and every single storyline in this movie is about people experiencing intense trauma and getting over that trauma or not getting over that trauma but dealing with that trauma by bringing people closer together um yeah.

I think this this is about i think the dark side of christmas that nobody really it's not the first thing you talk about right at Christmas tidings of comfort and joy and all of these things but it's it's about like every if you live long enough and at least you know to adulthood you are also going to have sad connotations to holidays you're going to have people that are no longer with you you are going to have um you know inability to connect with certain members of your family for whatever reason people who've who've died who might have loved Christmas um you're going to have be unable able to be with certain people for Christmas. And so Christmas inherently has grief and loss and brings those feelings to the surface as much as it brings happiness and joy and togetherness as well. They end up mixed together. And so this film explicitly is about those, about the loss and about that, but also about how fanfoundly, and you have the character whose name, who is known for a. Goes out of his way to try to make this dinner, to try to make everybody happy, you know, which is a very Christmas thing, you know, with food and celebratory. You know, it'll be okay at least for an hour or two while we share a meal and do all these things. And you have the explicit, you know, gift giving, you know, that happens at the end where they've essentially, okay, well, we have this family now, we're going to do the Christmas thing of unwrapping our presents and all of that sort of stuff. And you have a little bit of a Gift of the Magi sort of situation, you know, and then again, circling back around to the frame tale with the bike and it being stolen and how all of these things that we do to and for each other at the holidays have an inestimable ripple effect. Which is the film is very philosophical and starts going to all of these philosophies and so but that ripple effect that sort of intensifies during the holidays I think is really what it's fascinated by.

And I was like, when I was looking through that list of things that a proper Christmas movie has magic, I'm like, this film does have its own sort of scientific version of magic, which is that study of statistical analysis and that sort of butterfly effect and the impact that we can all have on each other. And it was only on this, my third rewatch When I finally got the huge nature of the coincidence That actually kicks the plot off in earnest, Which is, so they're using facial recognition To look at this guy who threw away a very expensive sandwich, Because Otto, the statistician, is convinced That because that guy threw away the sandwich That was suspicious And a juice, right?

And a juice, yeah.

Yeah I mean, it's like 15 euro Yeah.

Who threw us away 14- I mean, I get that energy. I'm like, I'm eating this fucking meal, it's terrible, but, you know, cost 14 euro.

So, because they do facial recognition to their experts' level of acceptability, which was a 99.12% acceptability, and nothing less than that would have been a valid result. And they find a guy who's in Egypt and they're like well can we lower the threshold and they lower it to 95% and they find someone who is the spitting image of the guy who throws away the sandwich to the point that Otto is convinced that it's him and this was the bit of coincidence that I on neither of my previous two re-watches had got how much of a coincidence it was, he was a an electrical engineer specializing in trains who happened to be the brother of the bikey gang yeah the gang leader and so and it turns out that that guy it was the person from egypt that was the person who was on the train is the whole kind of gag at the end or not a gag but it, I mean, I laughed.

Oh, no, because it's the whole, like, their sandwiches are terrible. I couldn't even finish them.

I had to go to McDonald's.

It's very Scandinavian humor. It's funny, but it's dark.

But it was only on my rewatch when they were, like, laying out the evidence as to who that guy was. I'm like, well, that is, like, the biggest possible coincidence. But it's actually, like, works thematically in this film because it's about we don't have all the data to recognize the patterns in our lives such that we can control it. And we actually just sort of have to roll with the random vibe that is out there.

Yeah, the idea that we have this incredible amount of grief and we just want to find an answer for why, and sometimes the answer is there is no why. It's kind of heavy for a Christmas movie.

Yeah, very heavy. I mean, this is going towards my sensibilities.

To be honest, all three of these are quite heavy.

Like, this is a very dark film, but it makes me laugh so much, right? And this is, you know, maybe I'm sick in the head somewhere, but the, you know.

The- Why is that phrase as a question, Jazz?

But that end moment, I really loved actually that, you know, in Val Kilmer coming back at Kiss Kiss Bang Bang did feel to me enough of a cheat that they had to hang the hat on it. But it then gave me that hope and sense of family and redemption coming out of the movie. But in this, I felt it was so important for Mads' character Marcus to actually survive, because it was like the sort of how I feel robbed in episode nine of Kylo Ren getting to die and then not having to answer.

That's you stealing from me.

I'm stealing your observation. You've made it on the podcast before. But, like, Marcus dying at that point would have felt the same way. Like- Where he was vindicated for his life of violence and got to die a self-sacrificial death and not actually have to address the shit that he did wrong or all of that. And so, him being at that Christmas scene looked like torture for him, like, with all these nut jobs around him. But they're also his family and he is embracing the torture of their being in his life. And to me it was a much more necessary not just necessary christmas ending but necessary ending to this film that marcus actually has to address the shit that's going on inside his head so that he can be a good father to mathilde and yeah a good member of this new newly created family so.

Interestingly i don't think the wikipedia summary is correct but they the wikipedia summary he has, a few months later at Christmas, the entire group joins to celebrate an open presence. And I'm like, a few months later?

Emmentaler still has the head bandage on. It's like days later.

It does feel like it's days later because there's a reference to the bike at the beginning where it's like, oh, there's still a few days until Christmas. We might be able to get you the color.

Like that's why they're going into town, like to try to get the bike before Christmas.

I mean, it does seem slightly absurd that Marcus has got out of hospital, given the number of bullet wounds he had.

But that's the magic part, right? Like, that's the-

You say it feels different from Gay Perry. I mean, it feels thematically different from Gay Perry surviving, but it feels just as magical. It feels just as movie magic to be like, he survives that and Gay Perry survives his bullets. But you are right about the magic element being an important part of it and this feeling like the algorithm or the coincidences because I guess in a way magic is just coincidence.

Well, what is it magic is just what we talk technology we don't understand yet? What's that?

Oh, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Or the version that I like, which is any significantly advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

I also quote that one a lot. I steal a lot of steuisms.

Yeah. That one about malice is particularly relevant to current politics. Are they incompetent or are they malicious? Does it actually fucking matter in practice? And the answer is no.

So, I mean, do either of you disagree with my view that writers of justice, while having less atmosphere, less Christmas trappings on it- I mean.

It looks freaking cold. and having been to Estonia in the middle of December, it's freaking cold. So, yeah, I associate that with, I think it's got the Christmas atmosphere in that sense.

But do you think it's more or less of a Christmas movie than Kiss Kiss Bang Bang?

Look, I'm not going to sit here and percentage-wise, I'm a very few things in my binary. Is it a Christmas movie or is it not? It's a binary. Yes or no? I do think it's a Christmas movie. for me what makes it more rewatchable though is more of the Christmas elements like obviously there's a lot of other things that make it rewatchable no movie is rewatchable if it has bad dialogue so saying it has great dialogue is but it's not like for me I remember the plot, um here uh Stu I'm not saying whether it's a good movie or a bad movie or whatever just that yeah that that's a separate argument again but Riders of Justice is the Christmas Christmas tie-ins, the thematic elements of, again, coming together and working through grief and using these, you know, rituals and a holiday and things like that to, more strongly bond with and forge new memories with, you know, your found family is more explicitly Christmas than what makes Kiss Kiss Bang Bang rewatchable. Oh, yeah.

I mean, I, you know, a family tradition for me is that we, you know, because we're spread over the country, we fly into my parents' place and we spend, as a family- a day two days three days cooking all of us sharing it and and we've actually got because because i'm going to so embarrass my mom but uh her her name to the grandchildren is grinny and and we now call ourselves instead of granny it's grinny and we now call ourselves the grinyans because we all she runs the kitchen and and we are all the grinyans that run around and and and do her bidding so the cooking the collective cooking in writers of justice definitely reads as christmas to me and the idea that the cooking together and eating together has a healing quality to it um i definitely yeah i mean i have christmas associations with that because i i do think cooking for other people and providing nourishment has a healing quality to it and the closest i will give you to a compliment chas is that i have noticed because i'm now doing the bulk of the cooking in my in my house it's like part of the reason i've done it is because the men I admire in terms of how they look after their families is because they cook for their families. And it's a way of nurturing. And I'm like, Oh, I want to be more of that kind of person. You know, I can't fix shit. And M's the one who fixed stuff. She's the one who put up the double the cork board for me to do index cards and stuff. I, I mean, I could do it.

I love that you're carding your wedding. It's perfect.

First act. Okay. This is, this is the low point.

Is it a three act wedding or a five act wedding?

Eight act, actually. Eight sequences. I'm still working on the low point. It's going to be like when I'm like, ooh, I think I've had too much whiskey.

I do think... Sorry to bring it back away from Stu's wedding, but similar to Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, I think Writers of Justice does have quite a complex plot as well. So, part of the re-watchability there is less about, like, both movies leave me in the Christmas spirit. So, I'm looking for that emotional thing. But the re-watchability, why I'm in it, like, moment to moment or giggling or being astounded or is, like, how sort of plot heavy they are. And also, those transgressive surprising moments still surprise me. Like, I know when Mads is going to break that guy's neck now. And I'm sitting here watching it. I'm waiting for the music cue. And it just goes, whoa. And he turns around.

It's phenomenal. The fact that he's a single follow shot with us behind him stops and turns around. Such great direction. That's so simple. Coming to the family thing, one of the things I think it does well is that kind of bickering thing. The balance between these people are on each other's cases. And it kind of mean to each other.

I'm going to turn this car around if you don't stop, like literally.

But you know they love each other. And that's a hard balance, I think, in writing, but it makes it feel like family, that they're not being polite with each other. They're allowed to be vulnerable in each other's presence. And sometimes being vulnerable is being a dick to someone else, right? Often we're mean to the people that we love, and that's because we actually feel comfortable around people, and that sometimes means we show our bad sides. And I think that's part of what makes this feel particularly like a family. Perhaps more than kiss, kiss, bang, bang. I don't get the sense that they're being vulnerable with each other.

No, they're just all assholes all the time. They can't turn it off.

No. And I think the fact that their understanding of Marcus, the Mads' character, right, and so accepting of him, which he finds insanely frustrating.

Which I love. We're going to love you whether you fucking want it or not.

Yeah.

Like, that's essentially their approach to him.

Where do you think is the moment, I know we did a whole ensemble episode on this, but when do you think is the moment that the boys, for lack of a word, the boys, kind of start to feel affection for him? As opposed to, because I think they see him as a means for vengeance. They don't explicitly say it, but I definitely feel why did they go to this guy, right? Why did they go to him? Because I think they've done their research and go, they know he's military, right?

They do have the training sequence, which I think is a very bonding moment that's deliberately in there.

I think it bonds with him, but I think it's really for me when they see how he interacts with Mathilde, Both when he tries to get her that help in therapy or acknowledges that she needs that. And then later, like much later, I think when it is still that family dinner sort of sequence and you can see that he's only going through it for her. Um and they i think realize through his love for her they accept him as more than just a means for vengeance.

Yeah i think that i mean another thing that makes it a christmas movie is they spend a lot of time in the car so there's a lot of time as these guys are driving back and forth between murder sprees to where they do like they do have those moments right like where they drive each other insane and Mads physically threatens them on two occasions and on another learn something really deep about Otto and I think you're right Mel it does come back to Mathilde is I think, they instantly love Mathilde and want to nurture her and part of it is we have to help Marcus so that he stops being such an arsehole to Mathilde. Like, so, yeah, I think... And then through that process, like, that's what keeps them around and keeps them working on it. And then, ultimately, they all love each other.

Right. And I think especially clarifying for people who haven't seen, yes, he's being an arsehole to his daughter because he doesn't know any... He doesn't know how to display anything any better. But they can tell that he's... Trying in his own way and they're like oh man someone needs to show him how because he literally just has no fucking clue but they they can tell that he has the desire to know and clearly was very much in love with her mother and is going through so much grief that it's compounding his usual um acerbic way of interacting and so yeah they do sort of say all right you know we're we're going to bond together and help him help her because Jesus Christ, we love her and we need to do this. And through that, they understand him better.

No, it's a remarkable performance because there's these moments where it's, I can't remember what beat it was, but basically there's this moment where he sees her interaction with him and he smiles and then he kind of remembers that he's meant to be angry and then he switches angry and you do that all on his face, right? That he's like, no, wait.

It's a fantastic performance.

It kind of really humanizes him. And look, coming back to the car thing, they do play a lot of choral music, which kind of European style Christmas, right? Which is not, you know, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, as it turns out, is a bloody jingle, you know. I too listen to Script Notes. But, you know, it's like that kind of commercialized side of it. And they've gone for that kind of like European, you know, Northern European choral music stuff. And they've got it because there's a running thing about putting on music in the car and stuff. So, they've got that stuff as part of it. All that kind of connects to the atmosphere.

This episode of Draw Zero is brought to you by Arc Studio Pro, a modern, fresh app for the screenwriting world. Which, of course, has industry standard formatting, which- That's the bare minimum. But exciting for us Australians, it has it for both US Letter and A4. Crazy. And it also lets you cheat the margins, which is one of my favourite little features. But it has advanced tools for storytellers that are actually easy to use. You can seamlessly move between drag and drop beat cards into a treatment and into a screenplay and back and forth at any time. And you can colour code your beats. It's super useful whether you want to tag your beats for characters, narrative point of view, thematic sections, or however you want. We got to use all of that on a project where we took it back to cards, and then from cards to outline, and from outline to pages. The development process was intuitive and powerful. All the while, it was the best remote collaboration experience we've had in screenwriting software, and we've tried a lot. I loved looking at a line of dialogue that Chaz had edited, going to the edit history and changing it back to the line that I wrote. We used the software to present to our producer and script editor at each of those stages, at boards, at outline, and then at pages, who could then leave comments in the app, which is both useful and terrifying. And we could reply to those comments, tag each other to throw each other under the bus, or we could tick them as resolved. It really is as easy to use as Google Docs. And this development workflow has worked so well that Chaz has decided he doesn't need me anymore. And he's using it on a solo project because it's not just from collaboration. And I know I'll be using it on one of my own projects because the development workflow really is that intuitive. We've noticed Arc Studio Pro is being constantly updated and the development team is super approachable and responsive. They've now introduced the new notes feature, which facilitates that collecting of all your scraps of ideas and allowing you to get into the flow of free writing and figuring all your structure all within one spot. Arc Studio Pro. Join the thousands of screenwriters from amateurs to pros and everyone in between who've already made the leap. Arc Studio offers a completely free plan because starting to screenwrite shouldn't cost you anything. But you can also get $30 off the pro plan if you want some of these pro features. If you visit the link in the show notes or go to arcstudiopro.com slash draft zero, that's draft zero without a hyphen. And now for the third hour of a screenwriting podcast. Except this episode is like 90 minutes. All the better for it.

Well, who are you?

I'm going to lead in by saying, and I would love to put this in the show notes. There's a article in Bright Wall Darkroom that I reread every year, which is about It's a Wonderful Life essentially being noir. And I think that it is a lot darker than most people, than almost anyone who hasn't seen it. And even the most people who have seen it once or twice really do engage with. And that it has, first of all, I mean, Frank Capra is dealing with some darker things. And I do not think that it is, I think that people tend to chalk up certain of Jimmy Stewart's character, George Bailey's emotional responses as all like a product of the times. I don't think that's accurate at all. I think that Capra is very well aware that this guy is a bit fucked up and that it is explicitly engaging with that as well as it is explicitly anti-capitalist yes doing this in a way that acknowledges um the uh hard and oppressed individuals and explicitly immigrants and um people without means in the town and then i mean you're dealing with suicide and you're dealing with like. The assault type thing, like, you know, getting punched in the face, walking to the bar isn't as bad, but you're dealing with somebody who's right off the bat in the opening scene whose son has died and who, because he is so depressed and grief stricken, almost accidentally kills another child. You know, you're dealing with war and both Capra and Stuart were enlisted in the war as well. And I think it's dealing with a society that's being decimated and doesn't, you know, now we're at the point where we don't know if there's another war, you know, coming down the road. And I think it's got all of that underneath this sort of, yeah, cheerful, funny, whatever performance, but that doesn't make it twee and it certainly doesn't make it light.

All right. Do you want to go and summarize the film for those of us who haven't seen it? Which can be, I mean, I haven't seen it.

I think most Americans, even if they haven't sat down and watched it, because it's a film that actually fell sort of accidentally. It was not well received when it was released. it fell essentially what happened is it came into public domain and all of the uh television stations went oh well this is free and about christmas so they would put it on constantly just as filler during the holiday season until it became a huge hit years and years and years after it was done so now pretty much anytime you can throw on a television in the u.s and at some point this is playing in you know the couple of weeks lead up to christmas so a lot of people who absorbed it by osmosis even if they haven't sat down and watched it if you're in the U.S. So the plot is basically, it's actually quite a long film. It's well over two hours. And it starts with, you see these sparkling constellations and you hear somebody who's, you know, in theory, talking to this angel and he's like, you want a task. Here's this guy. And he's like, oh. Hour and a half is just you get this guy's backstory uh he was a child and his he rescued his little brother who fell through the ice when they were sledding and lost hearing in his ear and then you know he grew up and you watch him playing and you watch him doing all these things and his life is constantly frustrated by inability to do what he wants he wants to travel he wants to get a college education he wants to go and um start a big job he wants he has all these opportunities that end up stymied, whereas his brother is sort of like the golden child. And then the villain of the piece is a guy played by Drew Barrymore's grandfather who plays just a phenomenal scenery-chewing...

No, it's like her great-uncle.

Great-uncle?

Something like that. It's not direct relative, but yeah.

Just a deliciously scenery-chewing bad guy who is attempting to own the entire town. He owns a big part of it already, and he's trying to own all of the town. And he attempts to own the Bailey Savings and Loans several times, and every time, just by the skin of their teeth, George is able to save the family business. So then he meets and marries uh mary they have a couple of kids and then one day right before christmas his uncle who works for the bailings and loan misplaces eight thousand dollars now by misplaces we mean that potter who is the bad guy has taken the eight thousand dollars no.

It fell into his lap.

Did not fall into his lap like there was a there was a bit of a tussle like with newspaper anyway he he has his eight thousand dollars he knows whose it is and he said and so he steals it yes he goes oh this is going to be what finally puts bailey savings and loan under which is going to mean i can own the town and.

Bailey's savings and loan is kind of close to a co-op in the fact that it's a community bank.

You're you're thinking of this place all wrong as if i had the money back in a safe the money's not here well your money's in joe's house that's right next to yours, and in the Kennedy house, and Mrs. Makeland's house, and a hundred others. You're lending them the money to build and then they're going to pay it back to you as best they can. What are you going to do, foreclose on them?

Yeah, it's like a community credit union, essentially.

Which they then use to fund the town members being able to build their own houses at what sounds like...

Communism.

Aggressively low interest rates, like pay me back when you can kind of loans.

That's not the house loans. Those are all of the rest of the loans that he gives them because they have no money. And a lot of them work for Potter in what is essentially Potter attempting to make it like a company town. And so sometimes if they can't get advances on their paydays or whatever, they'll get those at essentially no interest whatsoever from George. So George, in finding all this out, realizes, A, he's ruined. He's lost everything. He's very upset. upset and he realizes that his life insurance policy, which is good for $15,000, well, Potter says directly to him, you're worth more dead than alive. And so he goes to a bridge to jump off the bridge, kill himself, and in theory then his life insurance policy would save the savings and loan and Mary and the town. Now, while he's attempting to do that, there's a Loro, Splash, and this guy named Clarence who, as we now know, is the angel has jumped into the water. George jumps in after him. They get. Pulled out. And Clarence says, I jumped in to save you. And George is like, I wish you hadn't done that. Everyone would be better off without me. I wish I'd never been born. And Clarence is like, great, you've never been born. And then they go through the town and George sees what would have happened to the town and his community and all these people had he never been born. And it's, you know, the person that he worked for that he stopped from accidentally serving poison to a little kid uh served boys into the kid went to prison for 20 years and is now a rambling drunk um the uh woman who he was able to you know give some money when she needed it um sort of the town lush uh has been forced into um unseemly sort of life this is during the haze code so they can't really say like hey this woman has been raped and forced into prostitution but that's definitely what's happened right um a couple of other people who um have either died or become just bitter angry people etc etc you you recognize that he has done all now this takes 15 minutes out of an over two hour runtime it's a very very and most of that time is george arguing with clarence like what are you talking about this is fine like really the the thing that most people know about from It's a Wonderful Life probably takes about seven minutes of runtime where he's going back through the town and he's seeing all this.

And then he- I was expecting it to be most of the movie as opposed to a sequence in the third act.

It's a short sequence. There's a lead up to, which is about five to 10 minutes where he's telling Clarence, this is crazy. And then there's a five minute sequence where he actually realizes what's happening. And then after that, he runs back to the bridge and says, I want to live. I want to be alive. And realizes that this magic sequence, right? And we were talking about magic being an element of Christmas movies that magically he's back to exactly where he started. His mouth is bleeding from being hit. He has Zuzu's petals in his pocket that he'd taken from his sick kid before he left the house. His car was still crashed into the tree. And so he runs back and goes home. And in the quote-unquote real-time hour while he's been gone, the town has all rallied together and pulled some money, and his rich friend has called in from overseas and said, you know, I'm extending you a line of credit, and the bank examiner who was there has been satisfied, and they all come together and say, you have friends, and we've, you know, saved the town. And every time a bell rings an angel gets his wings and then they all sing Auld Lang Syne and the end. That is a, it's a long movie and a lot happens.

I have one, one addition. You said that George Bailey is always stymied in leading the life that he wants to lead. And what I think is particularly excellent about the movie is that basically every time he's about to do the thing that he wants to do, go away traveling, go away to college, go away on his honeymoon. There is an external event that happens, but then George is presented with a choice, either help others or he still has the opportunity to do the thing that he was going to do. He could have left his recently deceased father's business and gone on holiday. He could have.

But he knows that Potter would have taken it over. And I think very, very, very crucially, the reason that they do not go on their honeymoon is Potter has engineered a run on the bank and as they're about to leave for their honeymoon, the run starts on the bank or the credit union. And if that were to successfully happen, that would sort of be over. And it's not George. It is Mary who says, we will use our honeymoon money to cover this shortfall temporarily.

I mean, she holds it up. But then George doesn't at any point go, oh, Mary, that's our honeymoon money.

No, no, no, no. Of course not. But my point is that it's showing that she is engaged with this. She's on board. She suggests that she is in the community as much as he is.

Yeah.

Arguably it's one of the reasons that and she kind of says that it's one of the reasons that she married him is because of who.

He is.

And i think she recognizes that in this moment.

This is donna reeds and who's also becomes famous in television and is a producer later this is her first film role and she is the only reason that most of this film works as well as it does because she gets very little to do but she does so much with it and if you don't buy how in love with her he is and if you don't buy that she would stand with him even when he has some some pretty rough time and if you don't buy that she has the same ethos like it doesn't work and and even the the way that she and violet are positioned as these sort of polar opposites and as kids they you know, but that she is understanding of who she is and is perfectly fine with, you know, the relationship that George still has with her, et cetera. And all of that is just done with no dialogue or exposition, just through the acting of it.

One of the things, just to make super clear, because I love that you did say that George isn't the way, I think... Pop culture recognition of him is not actually what's on screen in terms of you were going back to it's a darker movie because one of the things that I do think they do excellently in this movie is he begrudges those decisions he always makes the right decision but he's never happy that he was put in the position he's never gone oh well like he's not like he's not a saint right he is angry about no.

He's not a saint he's a bit of a martyr.

Yeah but.

He's almost entirely apparently angry at the right person.

Yes there.

Is one massive outburst that sort of prompts everything and when he does that he apologizes for being angry at the wrong person but he understands that he's been put in this position by potter he understands that he's been put in this position through this unjust system.

Yeah and.

He understands that it's not the fault of mary or martinelli or whomever but he is still very angry about it and i.

Think.

Capra is angry about it and.

That's what this movie is angry yeah and.

I think that that's fair.

Yeah sorry i was the only reason why i was highlighting that is because i i think i understood what you were saying before and wanted to bring out like yeah the darkness of both the film and george bailey as a character like his low moments where he is a complete shit is because he's lashing out at this situation whenever he's come to make a choice he makes the right choice but he's like, essentially why the fuck do I keep getting put in this position where I have to make these choices over and over again it's.

Very very Garden of Gethsemane like will this cup not pass from me.

You know.

I'll do it but, god i don't want to yeah um and it is it is dark and it affects him it doesn't the movie doesn't act like doing the right thing makes you happy all the time the movie acts like sometimes doing the right thing is super shitty and affects your relationships in negative ways and is painful and can literally make you suicidal now what's what's interesting in in a little bit of the pre-chat that we were talking about is you were saying that george bailey wants to die and i disagree I don't think he wants to die by suicide because he is depressed. He is attempting suicide because that to him is the final solution and the only way out that he sees. And he has so consistently sacrificed himself for home and country. And and here it's not just for the town although it is for the town it is my wife will be ruined my children will be ruined everything that i have worked my entire life to build he does see it as a little bit of a uh sunk cost fallacy like i've i've given everything for this town and if i don't do this one last act the town will be gone and everything will have been in vain i.

I fully agree I agree with that. I'm not saying that George Bailey wanted to die at that point. In fact, it actually reinforces the point where I get all Grinchy and I'm like, this movie doesn't work for me at the end. But before we go all Chaz grumpy Grinch, what makes this film so rewatchable for female?

There are Christmas elements, obviously. I think this one of all of them has the most quote-unquote specifically Christmas elements. Everyone in there singing Auld Lang Syne at the end is a very moving moment. It is very emotionally effective. You have the decorating all of the trees with tinsel. You have the when George finally realizes what's happened, running through the street singing, screaming, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas. And I think that Capra didn't want this to be a holiday movie per se, like he didn't expect this to be a Christmas tradition, but I think he did want to tie Christmas to the idea of community and the idea of being responsible for your neighbor as opposed to commercialism. And I think that that aspect is very strong. Of course, for me, it feels traditional. There are certain movies like White Christmas, It's a Wonderful Life, A Muppets Christmas Carol, and a George C. Scott Christmas Carol, explicitly the George C. Scott and Muppets ones, also known as the two best ones, that I rewatched almost every year around Christmas. So it feels very traditional. But it is also about the Christmas spirit and has all the Christmas lights and decorating the tree.

And literal angels. and literal angels i i'd remembered like clarence and that but i'd forgotten the you know all three of these films uh have sort of like chapter elements so i mean more more sensibly kiss bang bang but the the narration and the sequence orientation of it um yeah i'd forgotten yep that we have someone walking us through george bale's life yeah.

There's the the narrators and they do have chapters it's like here he is as a small child and we'll go through this okay now he's come back. Oh, now they've had these kids. Oh, now, yeah, it's very... It doesn't have chapter headings. The only one that has the headings is Kiss Kiss Maybe. They're all very, you know, yeah, cordoned out.

Does that give it a storybook feel? And that kind of tap into the nostalgia?

The angel thing?

No, no, the chapters.

I mean... It is very storybook like this one man's life, you know, which I think inherently if you're talking about someone's entire span of their life and everyone that they've touched is very sort of storybooky. I think maybe you're right. I think maybe the chapters thing does. And we do keep returning to that like very lo-fi sparkling Milky Way thing, you know, which has that storybook feel as well. So, yeah, probably.

I do feel like it's a good pacing thing, because for what is ostensibly just the story of a person's life, it allows us to cut very effectively. So Clarence goes, who's this? Why are we here? Well, this is why we're now here, Clarence.

Completely.

I don't understand this character. Why are they being introduced 45 minutes in? Well, let me tell you why.

I mean, even though it is heavily focused on one character, I definitely feel like it is a bit of an ensemble. Not just Mary, but the supporting characters.

Bert and Ernie.

Bert and Ernie particularly. And I'm assuming that's where Bert and Ernie from The Muppets got it from?

Apparently not. But yeah, Bert and Ernie. Like literally these tertiary characters, Alice, who clearly, and I think one of the things that helps so much about that, right, is the first time we meet Alice, she already has a very different relationship with each of the family members and that is shown not told but like because of that even though she's really only in three scenes and barely at that and again hide of the haze code there's a lot of really strict rules about segregation and things like that that were in play in hollywood at this time but you have a character who has a who who walks in and there's four people in the room and she has different relationships with all four of them and interacts differently with all four of them, which helps immediately give you the sense that this is a town full of different people.

Well, Annie, why don't you draw up a chair then you'd be more comfortable and you could hear everything that's going on. I would if I thought I'd hear anything worth listening to. You would.

You know, you see the Martinelli's when they buy their home. Everyone is, it's a crowd of people. It's Mary and George giving them the gifts and giving a little speech. But there's a crowd of people, which just gives you the idea that this is a really fleshed out ensemble piece.

Martini! You rented a new house? Rent! You hear what he's saying, Mr. Bailey? What's that? I own the house. Me, Giuseppe Martini, I own my own house. No more we'll live like a pig in this potter's field. One more after. Hurry, hurry. Harry, come on, bring the baby. This is like a pig! I'll take the kids in the car. Oh, thank you, Mr. Baby. All right, kids. Here. Here, get in here. One more time, get right up on the seat there.

And you, you know, you have the jealous ex-boyfriend and you have, what's his name? You know who who has this catchphrase sort of thing that gets introduced when he's a kid that that comes up every time so you immediately know who they are you know you have people with, specific you know clothing and that sort of thing like violet it is very clear who she is every time she steps on screen because she's dressed differently than everybody else she looks wildly different you have the bank examiner even right who comes in with his his little like nose in the air and those the specific glasses and they're all they're all set apart but it's it is a big ensemble movie it.

Does feel family in a different way in the way that they support each other and.

Yeah and again very very intentionally so like it's that the idea of of obviously george has his his family but that capra is making the point of community and family and that he has mary and four kids but he also has this close intense relationship with a lot of other people in the town who is a found family.

Yeah, I mean, that makes it similar to kind of Writers of Justice and stuff like that. And I like that. I mean, it is an antidote to individualism, right?

It's kind of what all three of these movies are. Like if that's the one thing that connects them all is it's all about like all these people succeed because they work together. Together.

Yeah, that's true.

Although they find their families or build their families.

Yeah. And is that what, I mean, I suppose it is because the thing is people do celebrate Christmas. I've had a Christmas with you, Mel, you know.

That's true. We both had Christmas plans canceled because of lockdowns. And there were four of us or five? I think it was just the four of us. We all ended up with our Christmas plans. It got canceled because of various other lockdown people. And we had a wonderful Christmas. Very last minute.

To be honest, it's the only Christmas I've not had with my family. So my blood family. So, you know.

Oh, wow. Honored. I did not know that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is. So the fact is people do often find, you know, spend that time with found family, even if they don't spend it with blood family. And I think that is kind of like a good message in these. But what makes It's a Wonderful Life so rewatchable? I mean, I found it super emotional, but, I mean, I find everything emotional. So I can see why if I want a particular feeling, I would see why I would reach to it. But is that the defining thing?

I think.

Because it is, as you say, quite long, and I was surprised by how long it was. But is it because I could also see how it would become a tradition? Because there is a lot of voiceover you know clarence like all the the chatting about his life and stuff like that doesn't mean you could have it in the background is it the archness of some of it you know.

I think there's a few reasons i think um one it's a very well-made movie you have the that set piece of them dancing on as a swimming pool opens and they're about to fall like it's so good um there's a lot of really cool staging bits like that right um also it is.

They also did the historically accurate, they did the proper 1920s Charleston and not the 1940s Charleston, so they made sure to, I mean, to be fair, it's like someone looking up in 2020, the down step from the 2000s, I mean, it's not that hard to get it accurate.

It's not as far removed.

It's not far removed, so you can probably go, oh, yeah, you know, we can do at least this accurately.

So I think it's a well-made movie just because it's long. It's a well-made movie. I think around the holidays, we want to believe in the inherent goodness eventually wins, right? Which this does. It goes, even if you are sad and angry and frustrated and don't get everything you want out of life, that does not mean that your life is empty and it doesn't mean that you won't have good times again And it doesn't mean that you don't have people who love you, which this movie nails. The other thing, though, about it is this and A Christmas Carol are two of the most, not even memed, but homaged stories of all time.

I mean, this is an homage to A Christmas Carol. This is inspired by.

In a different way, right? And you watch a lot of holiday specials of sitcoms. And I have somewhere a list of my favorite holiday sitcom episodes that riff on this or A Christmas Carol. Because it is that A Christmas Carol is about going and seeing what people really think of you or could be different. This is what people's life would be like without you when you are feeling like I don't matter. What I have done hasn't affected people. And it's going and being proven wrong about that. And so there's so many, so, so, so many sitcom episodes that around Christmas do a version of this. You know, it's shorthand for things. You've got a lot of pop culture that references it one way or the other, whether it's George Bailey in general or Clarence the Angel or Every Time a Bell Rings an Angel Gets His Wings, which was obviously a saying before this movie, but has been very popularized as something that this movie does. Which also the movie makes fun of within itself which is pretty great and self-aware but I think that, again, most people, know the basic structure of this movie and the basic story even if they have like i said the the most famous part of it is you know barely maybe like a fifth of its actual runtime but people know what it is people have 1000 seen an episode of television that riffs on it uh or or even a movie that riffs on it yeah.

The sims the simpsons in the simpsons in particular yeah.

Right and so i think that that also makes it inherently rewatchable is something that you are familiar with even if you've never seen it before you're still familiar and that is a very holiday thing of other than chaz apparently who only watches new christmas movies every year um i watch.

Old ones that i haven't seen before.

As well well new to you new to you christmas movies where there's a familiarity and a comfort to it um and i think that makes it very you know rewatchable as well We want to believe that in the end that we matter and that Goodwin's out and that Potter doesn't buy the whole town and, you know, blow it up for the hell of it.

And that, you know, that housing is a human right. Yeah.

Wouldn't it be nice?

Now, you take this loan here to Ernie Bishop. You know, that fellow that sits around all day on his brains in his taxi, you know. I happen to know the bank turned down this loan. But he comes here, and we're building him a house worth $5,000. Why? Well, I handled that, Mr. Potter. You have all the papers there, his salary, insurance. I can personally vouch for his character. Friend of yours? Yes, sir. You see, if you shoot pool with some employee here, you can come and borrow money. What does that get us? A discontented, lazy rabble instead of a thrifty working class. And all because a few starry-eyed dreamers like Peter Bailey stir them up and fill their head with a lot of impossible ideas. Now, I say... Just a minute. Just a minute. Now, hold on, Mr. Parker. Wait a minute. Now, you're right when you say my father was no businessman. I know that. Why he ever started this cheap penny-ante building alone, I'll never know. But neither you nor anybody else can say anything against his character because his whole life was... Why, in the 25 years since he and Uncle Billy started this thing, he never once thought of himself. Isn't that right, Uncle Billy? He didn't save enough money to send Harry to school, let alone me. But he did help a few people get out of your slums, Mr. Potter. And what's wrong with that? Well, here, you're all businessmen here. doesn't make them better citizens, doesn't make them better customers. You said that they, what'd you say just a minute ago, they had to wait and save their money before they even thought of a decent home? Wait, wait for what? Until their children grow up and leave them? Until they're so old and broken down that they, do you know how long it takes a working man to save $5,000? Just remember this, Mr. Potter, that this rabble you're talking about, they do most of the working and paying and living and dying in this community. Well, is it too much to have them work and pay and live and die in a couple of decent rooms and a bath? anyway my father didn't think so. People were human beings to him, but to you, a warped, frustrated old man, they're cattle. Well, in my book, he died a much richer man than you'll ever be.

It was a surprise message. All right. Any, I mean, not a surprising message, but it's like, it's that reminder of like the kind of socialist aspect of American politics. It's kind of, anyway.

Well, and this is where, I mean, we wanted to talk about rewatchability. We want to talk about what makes a Christmas movie. But I actually think, and as much as I love, I love, I mean, this year I will, both for this podcast and with another friend group, have rewatched explicitly for Christmas reasons, Riders of Justice, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Die Hard, and In Bruges. I like those movies. I like them for lots of reasons, but I actually would love to see more watching of these types of movies that are not, I don't think, twee, but are sincere and are much more explicitly about addressing what Christmas is and what Christmas shouldn't be. Whether it is or isn't is probably a very much dependent on your social circles and families in person and whatever but i think that there's a lot of movies that i watch not all of them are black and white but if you go back to something like i think a christmas in connecticut was another one that i floated through this you've got white christmas uh you know bing crosby you've got um the fuck the santa's store department one of the court case where they take uh miracle on 34th street miracle on 34th street thank you um you've got a lot of these more traditional christmas movies and there's nothing wrong with quote-unquote non-traditional like the other two that we've covered um. I do think that every year things like this do get pushed aside for like, oh, it's old. Oh, it's twee. Oh, it's sincere. Oh, it's whatever. Oh, I don't like rom-coms. Oh, you know, Love Actually is over. And I'm not talking about us. I'm just talking about things that you hear in society or at large. And I think that that's actually a bit sad to me. And I think that to make space for both of those things is really important. And to address the fact that a lot of throwing away quote-unquote traditional Christmas movies often unintentionally means that around the holidays we're not absorbing the things that these Christmas movies are trying to impart. And I think that is a bit sad.

You mean we're losing a bit of the traditional values?

If by traditional values you mean housing is a human right and community wins and anti-capitalist overlords? Yeah, sure. That's my idea of a traditional value.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think a lot of people actually would be surprised at how progressive a lot of things that they poo-poo actually are.

Yes. I mean, the only thing that feels slightly non-progressive, though, of its period is the role of women. You know, this, oh, she's an old maid and she's like 27.

They try to age her up, but.

Yeah, they try to age her up at 27 to be honest.

She looks like a very happy librarian to me.

Take your glasses off and let your hair down and suddenly you're playing like Bao Chicka-Wow music in the background, right? Like, they try, but they can't quite land it.

Oh, yeah. Donna Reed. Yeah. Exactly, right? Yeah, it is quite amusing. But it is. I mean, I guess one of those things is those connections of this stuff of what we think of progressivism or something. I mean, we're talking about, like, particularly our politics, but it's like these things do predate us, you know, that there are these notions and these ideas have existed for a while. And there is, I mean, that is kind of the tradition stuff, but.

People who think movies now are too woke should seriously go and actually watch movies from the 40s. Like, honestly, get bent.

I mean, people, it's like Star Wars is woke and it's like, yes.

Star Wars was created as an anti-Vietnam movie. Congratulations.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also like the, I mean, I just watched a new, rewatched A New Hope in preparation for an episode we're doing in the future in the arc of awesome. And I remember how, like, subversive what they're doing with Princess Leia and rescuing the princess and all that stuff was. And it probably would have felt it quite, like, both subversive in the 1970s, but also the fact is it's still, we've been, humans have been subverting stuff since we started writing it, you know. Tristan Shrandy is not a new novel.

Christmas movies included.

Can I just, this is, I think, possibly to go into back matter, but can I grinch up It's a Wonderful Life?

You can.

I've had this experience both times watching it. I'm like, George comes back. He's found Susie's pedals. Everything's okay again. I'm like, all right, so now throw yourself into the river because nothing has changed. Because what you were saying before, he doesn't want to kill himself. He just has to save the bank and save the town. I'm like, well, it's all going to shit.

What Clarence has made him realize is that his life going forward will also do that, right? Like, the fact that he existed, and even when he thought he was failing constantly, he was not failing, and that he still has community and family and friends, which is like what the inscription on the book says, right, about having friends, means that he will go forward doing that. He does still think... That the bank will go under but he thinks okay i will still be able to help this community in other ways and i will just by just by being there for mary is is going to be better than my not being there for mary again because for him and this like the wanting to die by suicide is not about i'm too yeah horrifically sad to go on yeah yeah it is and so he realizes that my being there for Mary will be better than not being. Whereas before he went to the bridge to see Clarence, he thought my being gone is better for her and better for the community.

Yeah. But the $15,000 is still worth more than his life. I guess maybe he thinks differently, but I get, so Clarence's little journey to me didn't convince, it shows what George Bailey, the good that he did by existing up until this point, it doesn't impact that choice.

Right but how many of those ways that he saw that he changed people's life had to do with money all of them he runs no no no no no no no no no specifically right Martinelli had nothing to do with money it had him to do with stopping from killing that kid accidentally his brother it was from now.

That's Gower Martini he gave a house he did.

It with money he gave him all right you're right you're right there was the other uh it was the Gower yeah yeah it was Gower uh his brother it was from the icy water mary it was simply being in a relationship with her only one of them if i recall correctly only one of them actually had to do with money the rest of them just had to do with his existence and with his formulating community yeah.

But his existence moving forward from this point will be in jail.

That's what he thinks but yeah yeah and scandal it i don't he wasn't going to go to jail he talked about scandal and he talked about like He might go to jail for a short period of time. This is not how this works.

And then the lawyer in me at the resolution also got angry because I'm like, They've just seen a bank, the guy who manages a bank, misappropriate the entire cash of the bank and then seen the community come to pour that money back in. But he still misappropriated the entire cash flow to the bank. He should... Anyway.

Misappropriation is a strong word. This is not misappropriation. This was an accidental loss. Now, I do think Capra clearly knows that because it brings in the bank examiner to make that face and be like, sure, I'm going to let this go. But at the same time it's like well.

Christmas magic this is all me just being a lawyer like this is just displaying like my own sensibilities like like if it was me i would have been like oh i'm so glad my kids are alive again i'm gonna kill myself now to save everyone like if following it just felt inconsistent and i'm like love the whole movie i was just like change the final three minutes in some other way that makes more sense for me and then i would.

Honestly honest question i would love you to somehow rewrite.

An ending that works and you.

Just said in three minutes it's not happening but yeah we'll give you five pages five pages.

I've got to get through five pages of all my other projects but it does sound like a fun back matter at some point of us acting out chas's ending to it's a wonderful life which is a trial in some kind of financial tribunal this.

Will be back matter for next year.

And then and.

Then a year after that will be people the summaries of people passing judgment on your.

On your version a.

Christmas tradition is formed.

A christmas.

Tradition is formed yeah the family reading chas's version of a christmas carol which turns into kafka's the trial performing.

A five minute play.

Yeah yeah.

Yeah anatomy of the murder is just i mean it feels like you could actually turn it into a stage play a christmas stage play which is actually a sequel yeah to it's a wonderful life where he actually it's.

An alternate life.

Yeah.

It's like the day after when the bank examiner comes back and says actually i have to arrest you now george he wouldn't arrest george.

He'd arrest his uncle.

Only if george throws him under the bus so that's like part of the opening scene is like well he does he does yell it his uncle it's you who's going to jail not me yeah.

I'm not but then later on he he kind of specifically particularly in front of um.

Potter potter.

In front of potter he actually says it's him.

Yeah which.

Surprises potter he's never gonna tell potter like that his uncle's done a bad yeah i know.

Anyway hopefully i didn't bring down the end of the christmas recording i.

Mean you're not yelling at kiss, kiss, bang, bang, like losing a finger, getting it sold on, losing it again, et cetera, et cetera. Like none of that actually works that way.

No.

I mean, or writers of justice where they somehow slaughter a bunch of people in front of his house and they're all like, nope, they're fine.

That's fine. Yeah.

But I was on the understanding that the people who paid into the loan, into the bank, had shares in the bank, were, you know, paying it off on time. Like Potter was, even in the initial one, was critical of the people that they were loaning money to and at what rates and things like that. So I was like, oh, so now the community is finally coming. And if they just paid off their loans on time.

They're not.

Previously that he was never been in this position.

Yeah, they're not paying off their loans. They're giving George Bailey money. Like that is different.

Sort of.

They're paying him the money so that then he can save the bank. They're not that money is not going towards their loans.

I know. I know at that point. But also like if here, if the business.

Oh, it's a razor thin margin. But if his uncle hadn't lost the money, they had enough money.

Oh, for sure.

To withstand the...

But I mean, he jokes to the bank manager that they're broke before his uncle lost the money.

It's so funny. Yeah. And then he's like, oh, that's funny. Oh, sure. Right.

I trust you had a good year. Good year? Well, between you and me, Mr. Carter, we're broke. Yeah. Very funny. Well, I'll come right in here, Mr. Carter.

Bless Jimmy Stewart Yes.

Yeah, exactly Alright, is there any kind of learnings or anything we want to talk about? No?

I did find Chaz, the list that you sent through was really interesting, just sort of as a not as a checklist or even explicitly as a lens but just seeing that all of these movies did hit almost all those things, even the fact that you write the nostalgia factor or the redemption factor or the, I mean, even Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, right? It opens not with Harry currently, right? It opens with him as a kid. It is kind of setting you up to be like, oh, he's a bit of a larrican. He's cute. He's this. He has this friendship with Harmony and he has all these sorts of things, which I think is in Christmas movies in particular, there does need to be a sense of play, a sense of joy. There tends to be a little bit of the like, oh, nostalgia factor, et cetera. And more than in a movie that you're going to watch more. For the sake of watching.

So did you want to quickly run through that list again just as a as a bookend chas.

Sure i've got it here uh tropes as in i guess this is talking about subversion but like the trappings of of christmas which then also to me connects very much with atmosphere and nostalgia like all those three things seem to connect but nostalgia is a big one like, that's that to me that's another word of i guess way of talking about rituals we want to recapture or a feeling that we've had before.

Yeah. And that kind of feels somewhat external to the movie unless they're kind of specifically digging into people's experience of Christmas, but that is going to shift. But, you know.

Yeah. And the other ones were magic. And then I was just thinking, oh, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang didn't have any magic. And I'm like, wait, Harry was a magician. Family, redemption, and hope.

I mean, I think that back half all of the films do it. And the magic is also he survives and Harry kills like 16 guys, you know, like, you know, Captain, they even say, they call him Captain fucking magic or whatever when he kills the main villain. Right. And this ridiculous shot. So he is kind of playing around with that stuff and, and writers of justice, as you say, playing around all the coincidence elements and all that. Yeah.

And now, for Backmatter, wherein Damien actually responds to our call-out on nostalgia. Enjoy.

Hello DraftZero listeners, and to Stu, Chaz, and Mel. I thought I'd just give some brief thoughts about nostalgia in holiday movies. First of all, just a quick definition of nostalgia. The word is derived from the Greek nostos, which means homecoming, and algea, which means pain. So it's literally about the pain of returning home. And in the 17th century, this was seen as a medical condition. Soldiers were seen as ill after being homesick when they were displaced during war. But then it became a temporal phenomenon, which is kind of how we conceive of it now, which is longing for the past. So in terms of holiday movies and nostalgia, and for the sake of this, let's go with the Western Christmas that you were discussing, a few thoughts. First, the notion of Christmas is kind of a nostalgic concept. So it's in the cliched mediated version we're fed. Families coming home, being joist together with a glistening tree, present filled stockings and a turkey. Never the total reality of what we experience, and for some not the reality at all. And so there's a sense of pain in that unattainability. and it's also in the actual religious event being celebrated, the birth of Jesus, so the longing for his literal birth, birth being the ultimate homecoming, with the knowledge that this return is only fleeting. So built into many Christmas movies is this nostalgic narrative of returning home, for example Home Alone, the film ends with Kevin literally being reunited with his mother, and then the entire family comes home to a perfectly decked out fantasy Christmas home that Kevin's prepared. At the end of the holiday, Cameron Diaz and Kate Winslet find their true home together as a family. If I recall, It's a Wonderful Life ends with Jimmy Stewart hugging his wife and child after returning home. The arc is all about homecoming, but audiences know this is a trick, it's comfort food, or an ideal homecoming, and there is pain and longing in that recognition. The Love Actually phenomenon is a complex one. No doubt the film is problematic, but the film addresses the nostalgia at the heart of Christmas in presenting some scenarios that affirm homecoming and others that do not, for example, the Laura Linney or Emma Thompson arcs, thus acknowledging the duality at its core. Now, I do think there is a distinction between Christmas movies and movies that are set at Christmas, where the hegemonic version of Christmas is an integral part of the story engine. So you can debate where Die Hard lies here, and I haven't seen Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. But finally, there's the nostalgia for the movies we watch at Christmas. And these can be cultural touchstones like Home Alone, or they can simply be movies that you associate with watching at Christmas. For example, Sue's Ritual of Watching Lord of the Rings. Here we might be conflating the nostalgia intertwined with Christmas with the re-watchability of these films at Christmas. Or we could be doing something that is integrally tied to nostalgia and media, negotiating past and present. So when life gets hard, we turn to nostalgia as a stable touchstone to consciously or unconsciously compare or process the more unstable present. So after a tough or hectic year personally, or in a rapidly changing time technologically, politically, socially, holiday movies of all stripes can help us negotiate where we are right now in a safe and comforting way. Hope this made sense. Happy holiday season to all.

Merry Christmas.

That's it.

Merry fucking Christmas, you filthy animals.

Yeah, you filthy animals. I'm talking to my colleagues. The listeners are all wonderful.

Obviously.

Obviously.

Hopefully our listeners got something from this. I have enjoyed myself, if nothing else. thanks as always to our patrons who bring you more draft zero more often and managed to somehow get the three of us having watched three movies stewart actually did his homework and recording in the weeks before christmas in particular uh special thanks to our top tier patrons alexandra alexandra jen jesse lily malay paolo randy sandra these and thomas Thank you.

And we'll see you in the new year.

I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on this episode or anything in general. And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com. At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes. As well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Very important for spreading the word. Or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar or preferably more than a dollar, then you can also find links to our Patreon page to support us getting these episodes to you quicker. Thanks. And thanks for listening.