DZ-102: Game of the Scene - Bluey, John Wick 4 — Transcript

For American listeners Animal Catchers are an absolutely important part of Queensland life and I'm shimmying in the Northern Territory as well when you were living there Chas.

Pythons everywhere.

Oh man when you get a tiger shark in your pool who you gonna call.

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Hi I'm Chas Fisher.

And I'm Stu Willis.

And welcome to Draft Zero a podcast where two Australian filmmakers try to work out what makes great screenplays work.

And in today's episode we are going to be getting our discussion on games of the same so this is going to be at least in a jazzy space message at least at least in two parts because we're going to look at a number of films in a series in this episode we gonna be talking about bluey and comparing it to John wick for in particular. And there is Jeffrey parallels there and then we're going to be looking at triangle of sadness and the favourite in part 2 but I'm curious when I pitched this to you Chad's and I was like I want to do an episode that's looking at games of the same what was your kind of idea of what that is.

So I guess you can think of it both literally and as a metaphor I think it started out with us a little bit thinking about scenes that featured games of some sort of another you know game night or you know the game of chess against death in either Bill and Ted or the 7th seal depending on your taste so I thought that initially was where we were going to go and go what can we learn from scenes which heavily feature games and, You know just from a I guess like discussions it feels like we're going to definitely look at those but we're also going to lean into a bit of the metaphor is like in any kind of dramatic scene what are the game like elements or if you were to ask questions about what are the game like elements in the scene. You know how could that you know serve as a rewriting tool to give a scene more.

Yeah so I mean I'm interested to see what you see is the game like elements so I first heard of this idea when I was doing more long-form improv. Improv tends to lean into comedy but there's a form called The Herald which tends to be like improvised for 30 minutes right and so one of the ideas that is kind of in the improv scene is that you got to work out what the game of the scene is when you're a performer in it. But no one could ever really easily define it. Like some people are like, oh, it's just kind of the pattern in the scene. You gotta work out what that pattern is. I think it's a little bit more than that. What's great about the Game of the Scene as a concept is because if we think about what games are, is games to me are about rules, right? And part of what makes a game a game is that we're largely aware of what the rules are as players within that game. So, I think part of the game of the scene is not just about the patterning, but the. Characters within the same being aware of what the patterning is of the same what the rhythm of the same is what the structure is the same is what what are the rules within their same right what are they allowed to do what are they not allowed to do. Right and so it does speak to things like want like what is the character wanting to sing I think a game in flies like an end condition right like a victory condition, So what how do I win this game and we can expand that up just saying it's about the rules that the characters are aware of I don't think does the idea justice. So I think game night and it's the scene it's kind of like a set piece in the film it's a one shot we actually mentioned in our previous episode of one shots where the heroes have broken into this bad guys manner because they're hunting for this, Faberge egg and then they find the egg and they're being chased by the bad guys in the ensemble are literally throwing the Faberge egg to each other and in the script this is what the script actually says, which is Ryan stumbles and drops the egg it is caught just in time by Annie he latches it to Michelle Boomer pursues whoever holds the egg and it turns into a high stakes game of hot potato. Right to the script actually calls out what the game is like that it is a game of hot potato and when you see the film and and will put a link into the show notes to see the actual clip so you can see what it is like it is like watching a team sport it's very clear who the players and the two sides. And that made me realise there is a connection to what we were talking about in the ensembles and group dynamics the games can be. Collaborative games can be competitive and they can be combative and it's interesting because games can also be team sports and so in this game of hot potato the players on the one team collaborating with each other but they're in direct not just competition they're kind of like I would say he's actually kind of competition to the people that are trying to catch them who are the bad guys that are collaborating with each other so I think game sign is a really good one. But I want to hear what you think of the elements of a game that you were kind of noticing.

So again because I've been approaching this sort of like how can I apply what we're going to discuss here to any single scene that I'm writing the rules are one element and I'm going to immediately alienate all our US listeners by referencing the recent controversy during the ashes where there were three different wickets, Which is a batter getting out where basically the team it wasn't through a feat of sport whether the batter was out or not it was through an interpretation of the rules and suddenly everyone from both sides got hugely angry because the rules were being applied. Evenly and without bias right and then there was discussion about is it in the spirit of the game and all that kind of stuff cricket fans on what I'm talking about but it's fascinating because there was like the literal rules of the sport and then what everyone else thought was the right thing to do and that those were two different things so I think the rules are important. The wind condition I think is really important and that's something that I'm going to come to I think in John wick but perhaps more so in the in in part 2 in the dramatic stuff about like when you reveal what the wind condition of the game of a scene actually is and. I guess the other one that you this is a full credit to you is the arena and I guess I think when I'm hearing the arena for the game I guess I'm thinking of the boundary of the rules. Yeah. Like in John wick there's some very obvious physical arenas such as the roundabout of the Arc de Triomphe is a literal arena in which a game takes place.

All the stairs right like literally the mission is to get up this massive flight of stairs and not fall and then he keeps on falling backwards like it's like an endless runner iPhone game right I'm surprised there isn't John Wick for the stairs endless runner. Right so I call it the arena and I think I picked up that term from Tony Gilroy but yet you're talking about the physical boundaries and physical boundaries are part of the rules right like there is a cadet subset of what the rules are. I think it's important what are the boundaries of play you know what is allowed and what is not allowed I think the arena also implies obstacles you know like what are the physical or otherwise obstacles to the characters within the physical boundaries of the space.

And I was just going to say like if you're thinking you trying to use this metaphorically in the favourite there are very different rules depending whether the Queen is present in a scene or not so she's almost like the arena.

I would actually argue that she perhaps she is the referee our friends who play board games with us both know us that we're very strong rules lawyers and let me let me see that rule book actually I think the interpretation of this rule would mean I'm allowed to take your piece.

It says may not have.

Oh wow I can, I'm going to find that opportunity to talk about that time you took your wife's pieces.

You've used it so much on the podcast, I made her cry everyone, I made her cry.

So I think there's the referees, there's the arena, the victory conditions important and it leads into this other idea, speaking of board games, of like the path to victory. Right so if you play a board game part of what you're doing is like can I see what my path to victory is and often what is frustrating about learning a board game for the first time or playing a board game with people that are really experienced is they know what the path to victory is right and you don't. Yeah. And you're sitting there just getting frustrated but then there's moments when you know like even something like that everyone knows like settlers of Catan, Part of it is going, oh shit, I can start to see how many moves it is before I can win. And I think from an audience perspective, and this is why games are interesting from a screenwriting perspective, is the characters can see the path to victory and the audience can see the path to victory and they may not see them at the same time. So there's a point of view thing in there. But it does mean that we have a ability to empathize with the character if we understand how they can win. So that brings up tactics, right? So definitely tactics are part of this. So what's interesting about this episode is we've been working on it. I've been thinking how it connects back to our, you know, it's like episode 40 something on tactics and scenes. But it also connects to the recent weird episode we did on sword fighting, because that's all about realizing what game the other player is using, what the other character is doing, which means what tactics are they using. So when we're talking about recognizing someone's game, we're talking about what tactics are they doing and what are they making me have to do to earn victory. I think this is getting a bit more abstract and I think it'll be useful for some some scenes and some others which is like tools and resources that characters have at their disposal and I think that's particularly applicable with the John Wick kind of fight scene stuff that every scene you know that kind of action choreography is about what tools does the combatant have in those scenes that they can draw on and part of it is taking away like constraining them and not giving them some resources or making them be more literally more resourceful, I'm thinking of days a great fight in bullet train there's lots of great fights in bullet train right.

Yeah many.

At the Bourne Supremacy's got the great fight with like the paper.

Oh yeah.

So it's the tools and the resources. And I think that the last thing that we're going to come to for me in this, because it'll lead into an example from Monty Python, is that there's a gameplay loop, right? I think the rhythm comes from the gameplay loop. Someone takes a move, someone else takes a move, there's kind of like an outcome from that, then someone else takes a new move and a new move and an outcome, right? And that's where the rhythm or the pattern comes from. So I think it works for drama as well as action sequences because so much of our lives are right and one of the reasons that Bluey when we realised Bluey is perfect to do for this episode is Bluey is all about play based learning and play based learning isn't it really about kids learning kind of culture in a way right.

Yeah absolutely.

You know literally learning the rules of society and and so that you know what's interesting about the favourite when we get to it is it's all about the kind of the rules within that world and the rules would change depending on the arena that they're in you know same with kind of John wick and triangle of sadness is even more kind of abstract I guess.

Can I before we jump into blow just connect with some other ideas that we've done like you've already mentioned tactics and and that one really resonated with me because if you're playing a game. And you've got a win condition and you've got rules then you apply different tactics to try and win and in our tactics episode we showed how you can reveal character but one of the things that I like about this game metaphor is we also did an episode on how you can use the rules of a world. To build your world right to so you can use a scene to give exposition about your world and by your world extension you know your theme. By having the scene reveal what the rules of the world are what are the things that the characters can and cannot do and I think this is particularly relevant in both John wick and later in the favourite is what is the dramatic impact of rules being broken. You know what does that say about the world what does that say about the character what does that say about the tactics and the and the repercussions so I think you know like, worldview theme tactics it's all gonna build into this which is you know what the part of the reason we even came up with you've been talking about doing this episode for a long time but part of the reason we're doing it now, is because we've had to in the latest draft of the script we were working on going to a deep dive on making individual scenes. Work and that's you know we were that's why we did one is that's why we did questions of the scene is why we're doing game of the scene now so we're trying to I guess bring forth to the surface of the subconscious learning we've done over the last little bit.

Yeah I mean when I was working this I was reflecting on this one particular scene in that script which we've talked about because it's kind of sexually explicit right and it's over breakfast so it's a bunch of young characters basically trying to gross out each other and the game is who can be the grossest. In that moment but in a kind of like flippant way right so it's a game that they're kind of improvising the rules to it's not as literal as this but they know what the game is which is trying to out gross each other. In the same way that the Game of Drafts hero is to out nerd each other.

Or out dom each other.

Out talk each other.

Out neg each other.

All right speaking of negging that you'll start like skits like sketch comedy is so much about games right there so many sketches that are literally built around games but one of the classic ones that kind of sets up the rhythm which is a call and response kind of game is this.

And what have they ever given us in return? The aqueduct. What? The aqueduct. Oh, yeah, yeah, they did give us that. That's true, yeah. And the sanitation. Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like. Yeah, all right, I'll grant you, the aqueduct and sanitation are two things the Romans have done. And the roads. Well, yeah, obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without sand, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct and the roads... We're out on the road. Irrigation. Medicine. Education. Yeah, yeah, all right, fair enough. And the wine. Yeah, yeah, that's something we'd really miss, Reg, if the Romans left. Public baths. And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg. Yeah, and they certainly don't like to keep order. Let's face it, the only ones who could in a place like this.

The game is literally a call and response right he says something and then the game from the other players is to give a response that contradicts that right this is something that could come up in improv on stage where people are realising it so coming back to that just to come around this up before moving to bluey, I think the reason the games are so interesting is it kind of grounds the characters and being in the same scene if they're playing a game they have to be present with each other and so I think part of the appeal of it both in terms of writing but even, Potentially moving on to set, you know, working with actors and you can be like, oh, this is a little bit like a table tennis match, right? Or you're playing kind of hot potato with this idea, or you're trying to outgross each other. Is it something that forces characters to be aware of what each other is doing and respond to that? And that creates a rhythm, like in this Monty Python's game.

What do you think the win conditions in that scene are?

Let's look at how the scene ends, right? So there is a version of this idea of the game of Sam and I was talking to Emma about it and what she thought it meant. She was thinking about the Tony Zhu video about who wins the scene, right? There's just an analysis you can do on your scenes to write down who wins the scene. You know, he looks at Silence of the Lambs. Is it Clarice who wins the scene? And then you can expand that idea into, which is kind of more of a Robert McKee idea, is that you can literally write down win, loss, win, loss for your main character in every scene. And the idea is if they win too many times in a row, it gets boring. If they lose too many times in a row, it gets boring. So you kind of want some kind of variation.

I think one of the interesting things about this metaphor that you've prompted in my mind is it's different thing to say which character wins the scene as to say what is the win condition of the scene because the win condition is kind of part of the rules. It's part of the world and different characters might have different wind conditions.

Yeah well we've played plenty of games which get interesting one of our personal favourite board games is Cosmic Encounter which can have more than one winner right so they're a victor and part of that game is the victories conditions can be different per player.

Yeah so in this scene right the John Cleese character is playing what I feel is like essentially a his win condition is to get everyone to rise up and join him right that's the game that he's playing and his tactic for doing that is asking this rhetorical question and everyone else doesn't have the win condition of rising up to meet him. They think that his rhetorical question is the game that they're playing they're they're actually put he's playing like a combative or competitive game to be the leader of the scene everyone else is actually playing a collaborative kind of general knowledge trivia night game where it's like who can literally like feel the most answers to this question that is being provided to us.

All right apart from the sanitation the medicine education wine public order irrigation rose a fresh water system of public health what are the Romans ever done for us. Bro please. Oh please shut up.

Right so there's like a it's like a rhythm thing now I think that's how the same ends right like it's a what are the rooms ever done with a ok aside from that ok it's be ok aside from a and b ok aside from a b and c aside from a b c and d and then it comes back to like a single. Kind of frustration the other scene that I was going to play from Monty Python but I was willing to it is the great argument that the person who turns up looking for lessons in arguing. There's plenty of this kind of stuff with sketchwork but I think what is interesting and I think the reason we wanted to start with Bluey is Bluey as you say is not about a character winning the scene right it's not actually competitive particularly.

Dad this is my dad he's often very busy.

I have the joy of the show for those who haven't seen it it's a show that makes you feel great is it actually has quite lovely resolutions right it's actually if there is any conflict it is resolved and the conflict isn't combative at all.

Oh man there is one scene though where bandit is it called obstacle course have you seen it where, Bluey and the kids at an obstacle course for bandit and then they like challenge bandit to it and he smashes them on the obstacle course and then bluey like trains and trains and trains and they go again and bluey is about to beat bandit and bandit cheats to save his own like sense of masculinity.

What are the what are the core ideas of the show is resilience right.

But often that what the kids are learning is separate to what the adults are learning and that's what gives them I guess there the beauty for the adult audience.

Yeah the reason that we you know me childless watches the show and you who watch it without you have your children aged out of bluey.

They don't go to it but like for this homework for tonight I was like oh I've got to watch these episodes of Louis and suddenly the whole family watch like 8 episodes of Louis on the truck.

That's what it's like alright so the overall synopsis for the show is that it's it's main focus is bluey who's like a she's a 6 year old blue heel of puppy so the show is, Andromorphic characters and she's kind of like high energy and curious he's got a younger sister bingo and then their parents are bandit and chilly. And then they've got other characters that come in in the two episodes we want to look at is one episode from season 3 which is phones where grandpa comes to visit and the other episode is the quiet game where is. Bluey and bingo going on a mission with their dad which one did you want to do first.

I think we should start with the quiet place.

That's summarise the quiet game this is me just reaching for Wikipedia so basically what happens is is bandit is lying on the couch bluey and bingo playing loudly and basically bandit is like.

Kids! Come on, you're too noisy! We're just playing. Well, can't you play a quieter game? Like what? Oh, I know the best game ever! What? You have to see how long you can go without making a single noise. Oh, OK. You ready? Yeah! Okay, go! I think you got the hang of it see if you can make it to your thirteenth birthday's.

What is great about this in the concept of game of the scene is literally it's the game of the episode right which is kind of what blue is all about almost every episode is structured around some kind of game and he's very clear about the rules right which is. The first person to speak between you two losers so the kids start miming to each other right it's very cute. And then the the mum basically gives bandit a quest to the company is like bandit you need to go and buy a present for a muffin muffin and you need to take the kids because if you buy the wrong, unicorn doll should be upset and the kids know what it is and he's like basically the quote unquote conflict of the episode is that the kids have decided that even though bandit has told them that they're allowed to speak they're going to keep on playing, Right they're not going to actually talk until he can decipher their minds right it's an interesting shift he set up with the rules of the game are and then he tells him the game is over but they decide that the game is still continuing.

Bandit finally gets to the limitations like the cons outweigh the pros of them not talking anymore so he tries to pause the game and then he refuses to pause.

All right, toy section. What's this thing called again, kids? Moonbeam something? Kids! Oh yeah you're still playing the quiet game okay I pause the game so you can tell me what toy Muffin wants look at least not if I get it right.

Right and his tactics shift right because he's not playing the game but he actually gets roped into a new game which is them torturing him because he's tricked them into not talking, Because the tactics escalates where he finally says I made up the game it's not a real game I just wanted you to be quiet.

Bantit all games are made up.

And then because he tells them that they don't stop playing.

Yeah.

So suddenly he's at their mercy right so he's now part of the game that he created and there's a separate lovely little subplot about this you know teenager called Alfie. Yeah I was play the charades but just in terms of like it starts out the wind condition is competitive right he's pitting bluey and bingo against each other right whoever talks first lose it so whoever makes a sound first loses. But very quickly because they're both committed to it I guess it remains competitive for a little while but it soon becomes very collaborative between those two again spanned it.

It's actually that's a wonderful observation and what's interesting about it is because they bring him into their game they actually have power in the same right so they are kind of almost become the referees they the victory condition is satisfying man and so part of the power shift is they got power because they force him to play their game which is coming back to the sword fighting thing if I force you to play my game because I'm good at it that's because I've got power within that same, And I think we'll see that a lot in the favourite and triangle of sadness when we get to those because there's so much of those shows are about status right. And here it's fun because it's an inversion of the power relationship between the parents and the kids he needs the information that they can hold.

They end up making their father who basically wanted to have a nap and not listen to them the kids use his game to not play with them to force him to engage with them and that he ends up playing charades with them multiple times right so, You know as with the kids we were scrolling through all the thumbnails of the different bluey upsets and there's a lot of episode thumbnails of bandit just lying on the ground. With bingo and bluey like playing on him and I could there are photos of me playing the daddy on the floor game with my kids anyway that's all within the rules of the game. The rules of the world and the wind conditions stay the same. But what's wonderful is that when you know bingo and bluey finally do talk it's not like you lost I won there's none of that it doesn't it almost doesn't really matter because they're in the celebration of the dad and Alfie having one charades.

Yeah having guessed it so the victory condition shifts from who's the last person to talk to the dad's got a guess what one to buy and he's frustrated but they do a good job of actually finding joy in that right. That there's Alfie trying to work it out and then they they end up getting a crowd and the dad celebrates Alfie which is the awkward teenager right and so it becomes a celebration it's it's a celebration of victory rather than a commiseration of losing. Right I mean yet they both speak but the lovely button on this episode is that they play the opposite of the quiet game, They're talking to each other only in singing and band is joining in right so he's now part of the game so that I think is also something just an interesting idea is who are the players within the game right because just someone be able to join the game is a sign of them being part of I guess community or not being left out or whatever it's a sign of. belonging. Belonging's good. Okay, so this episode is a little bit different from Phones. So, Phones is Grandpa coming from the country to the city to visit, and it's very clearly established that Grandpa doesn't really, uh, he's not really up with the modern world. He basically tries to pay for an Uber with cash so we already get the sense that he is slightly disconnected from the rules of the modern world so that's the interesting kind of parallel it's joining him and. So basically the main meat of the episode is the blue in bingo invite granddad to play kind of pretend that their restaurant. But granddad doesn't really understand the rules because he think it's a normal restaurant but for Bluey and Bingo a restaurant is an app and you order food over an app so the whole episode is granddad trying to work out what the rules of the game are and Bluey and Bingo basically acting as referees saying that's not part of the rules. Then kind of telling him when he's got something right so there is this reward he is learning the rules no you can't do that yes that is good that yes that is good and the third act to the kind of the I guess the an agnosis of the episode is granddad understands it and there's just a beautiful shift. Where it's a similar kind of shift that happens in the quiet place where granddad put that crocodile in the backpack of bandit and he basically invented his own app he joins in their game and they have to use the app to contact granddad for him to come and be there crock hunter. Right and so he participate again like the previous episode he's learned the rules of the game and then the victory condition is that he's able to join in with them, in the game and together they're able to work together to get rid of the crocodile.

But in the in the like his way of doing that isn't that he just sits down and learns how Uber Eats works so you can play with the kids he just decides to go to embrace what it is about him. That they might be able to connect with and he actually changes the game.

I changed the game for me about Uber Eats to Uber Croc Animal Catchers for American listeners Animal Catchers are an absolutely important part of Queensland life and I'm shimmying in the Northern Territory as well when you were living there Chas.

Pythons everywhere.

Oh man when you get a tiger shark in your pool who you gonna call. So I look at I think this is to me it was a connection to John wick right interestingly this phone's episode because part of John wick is that there's this elaborate world with a lab rules and part of what John wick has to do at certain points is work out what the rules are, within the environment that he's in John Wick is very much about games not just the games of the fight scenes themselves right which are very driven by rules but the rules of the, the table and all that other shit is very rules driven it feels it kind of feels religious in terms of the amount of, kind of rules that it's got but it's very driven by games and it's kind of got similar ideas where the quiet place with someone taking control of the situation and forcing, Bluey and Bingo first bandit to play their game you see that kind of in John Wick whereas in phones grandpa kind of had to learn on the go, and then make them play his game but within the world, It's a beautiful thing because you're beginning to see he's beginning to understand what it is he's able to connect with them and it's a collaborative game right and that is different from John Wick and most of what we're looking for is his phones ends with him going these are the rules of the game and now we can play together. Before we move into John we do think there's any kind of tactic shifts in phones or something like that any of kind of that stuff that you noticed.

Yeah I mean just the one that is is not only a tactical shift it's a shifting of the rules of the of the world itself is like. Bringing in the crocodile. And so there's real pathos obviously with the grandpa in this episode just trying super hard to connect with what he can't essentially you know that's what makes it a comedy is you know persevering without the tools to succeed but then the the beauty of it is his shifting of the tactics shifting of the rules shifting of the wind condition right because the wind condition, Well actually the wind condition doesn't change the wind condition for all three of them is to have a fun game together.

Yeah yeah you're right and then he stands back and makes bluey do the work and look it is absolutely all structured around games and play.

I mean look I could rattle off probably about 12 bluey episodes that do something similar along having a literal game. That allows them to dramatise sometimes a metaphorical game but but something deeper that has got nothing to do with the game in the same way that the Simpsons often you know there's that formula of what the episode starts out with is often not the plot of the episode. At all blue he has a similar formula where you know that the the the primary game of the episode is not what the episode is actually about and what it manages to dramatise.

This episode of Draw Zero is brought to you by Arc Studio Pro, a modern, fresh app for the screenwriting world. Which of course has industry standard formatting which. That's the bare minimum but exciting for us Australians it has it for both US letter and A4. Crazy. And it also lets you cheat the margins which is one of my favourite little features. But it has advanced tools for storytellers that are actually easy to use. You can seamlessly move between drag and drop beat cards into a treatment and into a screenplay and back and forth at any time. And you can colour code your beats super useful whether you want to tag your beats for characters, narrative point of view, thematic sections or however you want. We got to use all of that on a project where we took it back to cards and then from cards to outline and from outline to pages. The development process was intuitive and powerful. All the while it was the best remote collaboration experience we've had in screenwriting software and we've tried a lot. I loved looking at a line of dialogue of the chasid edited going to the edit history and changing it back to the line that I wrote. We use the software to present to our producer and script editor at each of those stages at boards at outline and then a pages who could then leave comments in the app which is both useful and terrifying. And we could reply to those comments, tag each other to throw each other under the bus, or we could take them as resolved. It really is as easy to use as Google Docs. And this development workflow has worked so well that Chas has decided he doesn't need me anymore, and he's using it on a solo project, because it's not just from collaboration. And I know I'll be using it on one of my own projects, because the development workflow really is that intuitive. We've noticed ArcStudio Pro is being constantly updated and the development team is super approachable and responsive. They've now introduced the new notes feature which facilitates that collecting of all your scraps of ideas and Allowing you to get into the flow of free writing and figuring all your structure all within one spot, ArcStudio Pro. Join the thousands of screenwriters from amateurs to pros and everyone in between who've already made the leap. Arc Studio offers a completely free plan because starting to screenwrite shouldn't cost you anything. But you can also get $30 off the pro plan if you want some of these pro features if you visit the link in the show notes or go to arcstudiopro.com slash draft zero. That's draft zero without a hyphen. And now for the third hour of a screenwriting podcast. Except this episode is like 90 minutes. All the better for it.

All right, so John week four.

A new day is dawning, new ideas, new rules, new management. Who is this? The Marquis de Gramont. Challenge him to single combat. Win or lose, it's a way out. I don't sit at the table. Your family does. I'm going to need a gun. If you win, the table will honor its word. You'll have your freedom. Under the old laws only one can survive failure to meet at sunrise results in execution. Last words Winston just have fun out there.

I mean I was going to give it a brief summary of what it is but the John Wick films are not really about the plot so will give you a bit of a summary which is it essentially after the events of the previous film. The opening of the film is John Wick who's kind of left for dead at the end of John Wick 3 kills the elder the one who sits above the table in revenge for that and in response to that, the table in power the marquee who's like the big bad of the film of chapter 4 to use all these resources at his disposal to kill John as part of that he punishes Winston. In exchange and decommissioned the New York Continental and kills Sharon the late great Lance Reddick right and essentially then they hide to hunt down John Wick and that is the film. Right and then ultimately what ends up becoming the third act is that John agrees to a jewel with the marketing himself.

The who nominates Cain.

And that came out of Winston saying these are the rules and you're allowed to do this within the order of our society so the whole thing is driven by this and jewel unsurprisingly if you listen to our game of swords episode. The jewel is all about what are the parameters the jewels what are the rules of the jewel and bigger to meet basically it's pistols at dawn. Right classic classic duel and in the but they can kill John John is forfeit if he doesn't make it and so the kind of third act is John scrambling to get two pistols at dawn to be there for the jewel because it's his chance to kill the marquee. Right and and absolve him be like considered like absolution it's kind of similar to the last tool it's literally the idea of judicial combat. Is that a fair summary of like what the overall structure of the film is.

Definitely of the structure. Just to be clear for people who aren't interested in a John wick film at all I think this analysis is about what elevates basically excuses for for action scenes right so, the games of these scenes elevated and then also what we're going to learn here we are then in part 2 going to apply to quite dramatic. Fair yes. Where there is minimal shooting.

Except we're going to be looking at scenes from The Favourite that it literally involves shooting so, ok.

So the thing that I've actually loved about the John Wick series right because it starts out being like, don't shoot my dog and then you know superb Keanu Reeves action film with just like you know some soup song like just some little delightful little suggestions of a larger world around the intercontinental right and and the gold coins but they really are just, They don't have any bearing on the plot of the character decisions in the first one really at all but then the second and third films really become about. John wick in the table is people calling in markers in trying to get back out and then this fourth one is him changing the game entirely I'm going to destroy the table is his win objective right for that for the whole thing and. Whatever the rules are around the table and often they do have to explain them as they go because otherwise the the character decisions make zero sense without Winston telling us now you have to challenge him to a duel then he can't say no so long as you have the marker of your family and blah blah blah blah blah.

Kill him but do it the smart way get him to give you your freedom. How? Turn his rules and consequences against him. Challenge him to single combat. High table duels are a myth. Wrong. They're a cold, hard fact and part of the foundation of the table to stop its more combustible members from outright war. It's also, win or lose, what you say you want, a way out.

But it is those rules that I think actually separate John wick as a franchise and is actually made it a satisfying return experience.

Oh yeah I mean for me it feels like I mentioned the religious thing but it's like it really does feel like it's a story of like a pantheon of gods or demigods or something like that with all these we are celebrate rules I think we'll talk about, The jewel at the end is an action sequence I mean I don't want to spend a lot of time talking about the action sequences themselves though it's interesting when you've got. An action sequence right if you started this stuff is like, You know who are the teams what tools do they have what resources are available in their arena.

I mean applying this analysis to two different action scenes and the ones that come to mind either the Octotrium scene or the one a, first person shooter gameplay mode through the building with the with the fire shotgun and contrasting that with. The end get up the stairs action sequence I think if you apply this analysis there's a reason why that end one I think is a more satisfying and has more beats and is more and more interesting action scene. Then the other ones which you know they're all amazing action sequences but using this analysis like what is the game of those different ones because that other one has. Different wind conditions or a very clear wind condition I think sets them apart but the the scenes that I would really like to apply this analysis to and this isn't a film which has some scenes where there's a literal game like they sit down and play a game of poker at one point but that the two things I want to do I'm not the game based one so you've already mentioned one which is for me before the action starts in the continental Osaka I think it is.

You're right it's not Kyoto it's Osaka.

The Japanese continental so the discussion between Kenji and Chidi the Marquis man they're all trying to play within the rules in that scene it's it's just got like three beats of them using different tactics and wanting different things and it's revealing what the rules are who these different players are what their power is in relation to each other. And you know it ends with action but that's because they exhaust all the other possible taxes and we can get into it in the in the minutia and then my favourite scene in the whole film is between Cain and John in the church you know it's kind of like the homestead. Sequence right like the the final chat the duel has been set and the the two duelists meet before the third act starts and just sit quietly in a church and have a conversation and I'm, Fascinated to see what this analysis might reveal of a scene that's almost antithetical to all the action in the games that have preceded it.

I'll say in some level like when you play a game you can actually be in some agreement of what the rules are right and what is interesting about these moments in in John Wick 4 is the way that the characters work their ways around the rules.

Yeah how would you like to out of those things that we've nominated which ones would you like to tackle and in which order.

I reckon we do your first name the earliest film then we do the poker saying and then we'll talk a little bit about the coming up the stairs and the jewel but we then want to talk about the church thing because the church thing is a revelation right it is connected to what happens in the jewel.

And I'm glad we're doing the same for so again it's the marquee's men have shown up at the Intercontinental Osaka and Kenji is the manager goes to greet this on a guest and there's you know there's dramatic irony here where. Kenji is harbouring John wick and the TV is representing the monkey and he knows John wick is there right so that's the underlying irony but the thing that's really important about this, Film is that because John wick it opens with him killing that elder the table whatever the fuck that is empowers the marquee to actually break the rules. Right so the tension of this film is there's even like some the marquee is played by one of the scars got is a bill Skarsgård Pennywise the clown I think he puts on a delightfully, Evil French accent and there's even like a series of soliloquies that he does or monologues around new rules vs old rules and and consequences and all this kind of stuff so to me like the underlying themes of the of the film the thing that elevates this film is dramatized in the scene here between Kenji and Chidi which is like who's going to adhere to the rules of the world that have been previously established.

Welcome to the Osaka Continental, gentlemen. How may I be of service? The table has reason to believe that this facility is providing services ut qui excommunicantur That is a grave accusation Will it require full access to your hotel? Of course But as you are well aware, no business Not even your kind of business maybe conducted on continental grounds so I'm going to have to ask you to surrender your firearms. We speak for the marquis. I speak for Osaka your guns please.

I think his name is I only know his name is Judy because I looked it up on IMDb but he's henchman number one of the monkey so he shows up and says he would like to search the hotel for John wick and Kenji agrees says yes you may you may search the hotel however. There is to be no business in the hotel and this was like a big plot point in the first film and the second film you know there is to be no assassinations on the. Continental grounds and Kenji even says even business such as yours like he he highlights he emphasises that even the marquees tables business cannot happen on Continental grounds. Right so he's saying give me all your guns you can search my hotel but give me all your guns.

It's so I'm Highlander.

Yeah but they're both playing at that point within the rules and at that point they both try to pull rank like one says I represent the table and the other says and I am the manager of the Continental like you're in my house kind of thing within the rules and then, Chidi's informs Kenji that the Continental is being deconcentrated and so that they are allowed to conduct business on the Continental. Premises and by deconsecrating it we've just seen with Winston it previously with the Continental New York Kenji suddenly loses all power in that scene other than. Physical power like the ability to win a fight suddenly the rules the wind condition has changed I mean look we were watching a John Wick film we always knew, that as an audience that the wind condition is like whoever's going to kill the most people but, that was not what those characters were that's not what they came into the scene of the wind condition being.

This is an interesting idea because maybe really what we mean by the referee is what character which may not be one of the players what character has the power to either interpret the rules or change the rules.

Yeah dictate the rules are.

You know an interestingly we saw in blue either it was kind of blue. Right like you know she's explained what rules out of the grandpa and then when he did the croc thing she accepted that she's going to play along with the croc what will say in the favourite is that the referee character is, the Queen herself right she is the one with the power to change what the rules are and and what's interesting about John wick is who has got the power who ultimately can bend the rules to do their wheel is kind of an interesting part of all those scenes right.

Yeah or who has the power to ignore the rules I think is a similar similar way of phrasing it because ultimately and again not to. Get too deep in the favourite I think the only reason Abigail wins is because she actually stops playing by the rules.

It's just an interesting thing that you can look at a scene that you're writing and go who is the referee who is able to go someone's one someone's lost that's a penalty whatever kind of terminology you are, And that kind of adds like an element of a dynamic right but here that the character is able to introduce that make and say hi there's a actually a bunch of new rules.

Times are changing a new day is dawning new ideas new rules. New management.

Well in terms of writing the same right with Winston and the deconsecration of the New York Intercontinental he gets a letter when he comes and has his interaction with the marquis he has already. Lost the rules have been very clearly set within that same in this different scene, Chidi doesn't come in and say the Continental Osaka has been deconsecrated he uses that as an escalation tactic when he doesn't get what he wants right so I think for him the ideal scenario would be I get to do whatever the fuck I want but we can leave the management of the Osaka Continental in place we can leave that infrastructure in place and it's only when Kenji refuses to budge. Yeah that that it gets escalated right so that the choice of the writers here in in what order those escalations take place what tactics they use reveal you know speak to what are the wind conditions what are the tactics what are the rules of the world when under what conditions are they going to shift when are they going to pull that lever or not.

Yeah and look what is interesting about John wick is a franchise is that there's a lot of rules that the characters are aware of was seemingly aware of and then there is someone like Winston who is almost like the rules keeper.

Yeah.

Right he's one of those people whose job is to know what the rules of the universe are. And you see this you see that kind of character in fantasy and you see that kind of character.

It's Obi Wan Kenobi.

Yeah these are the rules of what you can do what you can't you can see that in fantasy that there's going to be all those people within games of thrones that are like oh this is how you kill the stone people this is what you can do with dragons etc etc the keepers of the law. What's interesting about John wick is that the that information is not. Really easily accessible to the audience I kind of only tell us in the moment that it's possible for the Continental to be deconsecrated right but I think it's very interesting that they have chosen to use the word deconsecration because it kind of carries this this feeling, I don't know I feel like there's a horror film where there's that idea of like you are no longer invited and I can kill you or something like that like I can't remember the specifics of a Buffy episode, Or or something similar but it feels like there is one of those moments where the trope of a certain kind of genre is how this is no longer a church so I'm gonna chop you know.

You can imagine like a a vampire becomes the Pope so that they can start to be consecrating churches that where the other vampire slayers had their hideouts.

Yeah so you can kind of see how that stuff works and it's interesting it's using terminology but it is just interesting in in John wick that there are characters that we know who know the rules they act. With knowledge of those rules and they can accept those rules which makes it feel more believable but it's not easily accessible to the audience which is a little bit different from Bluey and the other kind of things that we've been looking at where the rules are a little bit more obvious of what the scene is.

So do you want to go into a scene where we all know the rules of five card draw poker.

Yeah I mean ok so essentially the it's kind of in the middle of the as part of John wicks quest there's a whole bunch of this is the plot is almost him following these weird fucking rules right. He knows he needs to request a jewel but to be able to request a jewel he needs to be a member of a family he goes back to hit the Ruska Roman crime syndicate which is his family and they send him on another quest like seriously John Wick has almost got the structure of an RPG video game right.

100%.

And that means he now has to go in killer Harkin a high table member who is kind of at this German nightclub and basically it comes in it's John Wick. Who are the three people at the table so there's the killer.

So there's the killer who's the dealer and then there's Cain so the blind Donnie and the super assassin that the marquee is hired to kill John wick. There's John wick and then there's this sort of like Ronan assassin who were not quite sure of his.

Allegiance.

Yeah as far as I can make out he basically until the bounty on John's head is high enough he's actually helping John to try and drive up the bounty.

Yes exactly yet that's Mr nobody they all sit at this table right and they play poker in the idea isn't the winner is the person who gets to kill John Wick.

Yeah but it you know the him he's he's even talking about it right like. John wicks there to kill him Cain is there to kill John wick nobody is there who does he want to kill.

So you want to kill him. You want to kill him I want to kill him. What about you Mr big I'm going to kill you.

He's spelling out to the audience the adult I guess it doesn't become dramatic irony when it's set out loud by a character as to what all the relationships are between the characters at the table.

Right it is absolutely pushing it in a in the form of a literal game right. And then the rules are changed.

He deals himself five twos through cheating through overtly cheating him or wins the literal game of poker.

Yeah so it's a it is clear the Simpsons is the same moment with the guys playing the hand with the five aces right with the mafia guys in the Simpsons he, visually breaks the rules and says you know basically this is my house I make the rules and that's it that's the main reason I want to talk to the same because it shows that he has the power within this environment because he isn't bound by the rules that he sets others. And so that shifts it again it's a very similar beat to the idea that you're been talking about which is that the rules shift that the tactics escalate and then it shows someone who's able to kind of shift the rules again in a way John Wick maybe maybe the thinking about it in John Wick 4 is that. Everyone else but John can break the rules of the high table. Right and the only way for the John wins and this leads me into what the ending of the film is by actually adhering to the rules because he knows that they hate him and so they can turn you know they can constantly break or change the rules on him. But he absolutely has to kind of it here to what their rules are and so coming to this pistols at dawn. John eventually does make it up the stairs and then it's just a great action scene is a game of the same the rules are he's got to get to the top there's a win condition there is obstacles in the arena and we see him literally run up is it is like a video game.

I mean look at part of the irony of that scene is there's actually a literal cable car right next to those stairs that anyone can just sit on and ride up to the top that they very cleverly managed to not get in shot. But that scene is one of the best action scenes in the film because they even say how many stairs it is 200 odd like it's a literal fuck ton of stairs he's got a fight his way to the top we know what that fight is going to look like he has to make it by sunrise he's got three minutes right. And we've been watching this action scene that feels like it's been going for 15 minutes probably only half that right but it goes for a long time before he is literally kicked all the way back down to the bottom of the stairs. And it's it's kind of heartbreaking because we like I don't have time I don't have it in me as a viewer to watch that action sequence again. Yeah. Right as much as it was like terrible for John's character and he's just about to give up and it's at that point that Cain comes in and becomes a collaborative game.

Yes they work together because Cain has been promised his freedom in return for killing John so there's rules his victory condition is becoming free of the high table and so together they work their way up to pistols at dawn.

Dueling pistols 30 paces in the event that both parties survive each will approach the other at increments of 10 paces until only one remains.

What happens is John wick on the third round is severely hurt by Cain right in the cane is basically a substitute for the monkey the monkey is called came to fight on his behalf. And the monkey is like I'm going to administer the you know the final bullet.

The coup de gras.

Yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot him and then he pulls gets the gun and then Winston reveals Winston is the rule keeper what are the kind of the the law keepers is like. Who's that? you, around. Right John is it here to the rules and then he's John is able to kill the marquis and he kills the marquis in accordance the rules front of a character called the harbinger, who is played and this is important this connects to Highlander because it's Clancy Brown right from the Highlander, And I connect it because I get like when Chad was announced for the direct as the director of the Highlander reboot I'm like I totally get all the weird fucking rules in Highlander franchise right that part of what makes it work good the go to be one you got to jump off their heads and these are the rules of how Highlanders fight like. John Wick feels like it's a successor to that universe. And because John is absolutely here to the rules and the character the harboring was like a guest the referee right he is there able to get what he wants the marquis. Is effectively by being killed means that canes Judy has been fulfilled so Cain is released bright John wick is able to have effectively killed the marquee basically everyone at they have played by the rules in a way at the end get what they wanted but what we realise this comes to the church saying is actually. Cain and Wick have kind of been working together right that was my interpretation that they actually made the decision about what they were going to do at the church.

Yeah I this is one of the few points in a film that's really over where I actually wish it had been more over it about that.

Yes.

Because to put this church scene in context.

So this is an earlier scene.

Yeah the rules for the jewel have just been set and it's before John has to try and make it up the steps to get to Sacre Coeur and have the jewel.

King. John. Saying goodbyes? They're saying hello. You think your wife can hear you? No. Then why bother? Maybe I'm wrong. The dead are gone. Only the living matter. After my daughter was born, I want to leave this life. I thought I did. But you didn't. We're damned you and I and that we agree My daughter's not. It was between you and her. You're going to die. Maybe not. I missed you, John. It's so good to sit with a friend.

Right so it's before four different huge action set pieces right and he knows he and Cain know right what that they're going to be doing each other and like you said. Cain will win his freedom and it more importantly the safety of his daughter like you will not you he will not only win the safety of his daughter he will win the right the freedom to engage with his daughter because he's been keeping his distance from his daughter to keep her safe.

Yes yes good.

Right so he will win her safety his freedom and the freedom to be a father again right really amazing John Wick will actually get to to destroy the table quote unquote legally without, further consequence to him because there's a lot of discussions early on about like when does this end right like do you just keep killing people or do you like actually beat them at their own game. Right so that's what's set up but it's also Cain has been given John wicks name since the beginning of the film right and the marquee during this period of time between the setting of the rules for the jewel in the actual jewel at dawn is basically sending wave after wave of hired militia to try and kill John. So the thing that I needed to be kind of got out the way of this scene was I needed Cain and John to have a bit of discussion about why sitting in this church I mean it's a beautiful scene and I really want to get into it but what I would have appreciated them getting out the way is why does Cain not try and kill him then and there because he would achieve everything that he wants.

But churches in this universe also considered consecrated ground like today do the Highlander thing of you know that kill picture of people on sacred ground.

Maybe right but I think I think I just needed them to acknowledge the rules either the rules that they were playing by or the cane because what is clearly dramatised later at the stairs where can help some to the top is Kane is committed to killing John and getting what he wants but he's also committed to giving John a chance to win. Mmm. That that is clearly dramatised by the film but I think I wanted it kind of stated in this scene as to why they weren't trying to kill each other.

I remember now and you've seen it more recently than me that Cain only wins his freedom if he defeats John in the jewel he can't kill him man.

Yeah like I think I think all this stuff gets dramatised I think I just wished it was said at some point but anyway it's a it's a it's a beautiful little scene, where they actually kind of disgust as assassins in this really weird world kind of what is important to them and it just ends with them actually valuing, sitting and talking to each other so it's John kind of praying and and Cain asked whether he's trying to like you lights candle whether he's lighting a candle for his dead wife because everything in the whole series has been set off by John. Got out from the table to be with his wife his wife died of cancer she left him a dog and then home invaders killed his dog that kicks off the entire John wick franchise and so it starts out as like just two guys sitting in a church, you know it feels very Tarantino esque like or very Sergio Leone like two killers taking a moment to talk deep and meaningfully at each other. But I love where the scene ends up which is just about like in this world where those two people have lost everything like John's lost his wife Cain's lost his daughter Cain gave up his eyes voluntarily to try and protect his daughter like in a world like that what do those two people have and then they conclude that it's each other. So is there a game to that same does this analysis help a scene like that.

I'm going to say I'm going to use a metaphor from board games I think this is what board gamers would call table talk just players talking to each other about what they gonna do in a competitive scenario. And they often try to use code so someone else doesn't but some people don't like table talk right because you can end up encouraging people to pick on other people and that's only my being my strategy in table talk but, table talk is something that certainly happens and I'm not saying it happens in poker because that's a different kind of game but something like this where the victory condition like I think that's. Why it's interesting instead of, who wins the same what it like. And I think we've talked about that in our ensembles and if we don't, I'd maybe we need an ensemble for, no, no, but you know we talked about it with the script that we've been working on characters talking about what they're, how they're going to approach a situation, reveals character and it moves things forward, how are we going to solve this problem and I think that's what the subtext of in a way of that scene is. Ok. What's your analysis.

So I started with what do actually each of the characters want from this scene right when they've come in like why the fuck is Cain showing up I know what the writers want this scene in there right it's a cool scene but what do those two characters John showing up at the church first Cain shows up second what do they both want I think they want a measure of peace. Right I think that's the wind condition for both of them and separately they're not like collaborative in this they both separately searching for peace in the same that is the wind condition for the same. I think that rule that you say did exist it is dramatised.

What role.

The rule that for came to get what he wants he needs to only kill John in the duel and not beforehand I wish that was stated at some point but I think that rule exists. So I think choosing an arena of a church may also have that you know consecration religious there may be additional rules the arena is important the wind condition is important there appears to be a rule that they can't kill each other and only those conditions can give rise to a scene where they can actually connect. As two friends be especially when you know like Cain in this film he's got a way more interesting journey than John pain is basically continually blackmail to kill the few friends that he has left in this world and he keeps trying to not kill people especially Kenji right like he tries to not kill Kenji and Kenji just basically.

Forces him into it.

Sense of honour forces him into it and then Cain has to acknowledge to Kenji's daughter like I'm not going to kill you and I know that you're going to come after me because that's how this shit works and that kind of makes me sad but you know I will see you in the future. This is it you know and then and then here you know Cain loves his daughter more than he values his friendship with John but that doesn't mean he doesn't value his friendship with John and this scene is him having the opportunity to say even though I'm going to try and kill you in the morning. I value you and that scene can only take place in a certain arena with certain rules and with both characters trying to achieve a certain win condition.

Yeah yeah that's it.

This may be me retrospectively fitting stuff on but I think if you're struggling with the same like if you've got a scene where you like, I is the right to want these things to happen in the characters aren't don't inherently want to do the things that I want them to do there maybe this kind of analysis saying well what's the game of the same what are the wing conditions what are the arenas what are the rules those can help you. Put those characters to do the things that you as the writer might need them to do.

Yeah I mean I think what's interesting about the game of the same maybe we're moving a little bit more into wrap up. Is I look like most of the stuff in Draft Zero it's kind of rewriting tools but rewriting may include just you've got an idea for a scene and you mentally think about it and then you the first version of it you actually type out, incorporates the idea of the game but I guess what I'm saying is that it can help you conceptualise some scenes but it also can be something that you can use to look at a scene, And go how can I improve it it can be a scene that you something to use in directing actors but it isn't doesn't have to be a perfect model. Right it's not something that we say everything needs to be game every scene needs a winner right but it is something that you can look at I mean I think fight scenes and act those kinds of things actually because it'll be different you know the the directors of game night. In Dungeons and Dragons which I love have their kind of equivalent of that their one shot game of the scene saying is the druid being pursued right and she constantly shape shift and it's basically just a game of tag. Right.

I was going to say the arena seen at the end. Yeah is a full on game scene where initially they're playing by the rules and in the end they literally asked themselves the question like how do we use the arena to our advantage. Right so they they use the cube to their advantage to get to escape the arena and only then can they start playing by their own rules.

Yes exactly.

Should we say when to key learnings.

I want I had said wait into key learnings jazz.

I didn't feel official but okay.

What do the rules say Chas?

The rules say if you say key learnings we're in key learnings.

Are we in key learnings? We are now.

Exactly.

I think there's coming back to the quiet place like one of the ideas is that you can apply a rule that the character doesn't want to talk or that they won't say key words you can use that in your writing it's it's structural right like and you can do this stuff is like actors games when you're working with actors like, The goal is to make a character laugh there's literally a strange TikTok series or it's YouTube I don't know a social media series where it is a game show where they just basically tell each other jokes and that it's over when you make the other person laugh right. And so they just get increasingly dirty or whatever part of it is the tactics to work out what someone seems to be in like okay I can see that they're smirking right but you can have a character who has decided that they're not going to say I love you you know they're going to be a hand solo that that that's part of their running condition is is this so the game of a particular scene then might be I want hand solo to admit to his feelings from me. Right it's not quite as dynamic but is that that is definitely implying like two characters engaging with each other right so it's not a game of solitaire and and the kind of game the same stuff that we're talking about is not solid solitary games and that's what's kind of interesting about it.

Yeah definitely.

So what other key learnings do you have.

I mean for me from doing this analysis is the two key learnings is setting a win condition for the scene is different for saying who wins a scene you probably know going into a scene who's going to win it right but knowing what the wind conditions are for that character and the other characters is it to me an important distinction that I've learned in in this and then. You The other one is I think this is actually and I only just discovered that live you heard me you know pull it out of my brain in relation to John wick is when you've got those scenes where you need your characters to do something that isn't actually in their character. Then you actually have to change the circumstances around them to make them make this decision such that it feels in character and I think this analysis of, arenas when conditions tactics rules is helpful to going how within a scene can I change the external things around this character such that they make a decision. Or it might not be you know we got a beat repeatedly in one of our scripts where we bought a character doing something and it was a really big turn and it worked for us as writers but it didn't work for some of our readers. And so we had to work really hard at that scene again and again and again to finally get the readers to a point where they were where most of them are like we're on board that character making that very major decision.

Yeah I mean is that is that a game thing though.

I don't think we use that analysis but we didn't have that kind of lexicon at the time like we could have thought about like what are the rules here by which they're playing like in the end for this particular script problem we had to seed a lot of backstory. That you and I knew but our readers went fully across and we had to get we had to use. Narrative point of view to really get the audience in the experience of that character now you know part of that is around I think rules of the game and when conditions is probably a bit of a stretch but certainly arena.

Yeah we have the lexicon to think about kind of the rules around the characters or the ringers though I think it's kind of in there I think we could look at some of the scenes that we're happy with and go okay yeah we know. What that is and then maybe another same way to look at and go on maybe it's more dynamic if we think about this is having a game right because games I think what part of the reason they feel like it to me it feels like it could be a useful tool is good still connected to what characters want. Right the very basics what do they want and how do they try to get it or coming way back to tactics like the goat what is the goal what are the obstacles what are the tactics and the expectations of the character the goat analysis. The what do they want what they see as in their way what tactics do they use to try to get around the obstacles and get what they want and then what their expectations are they going to. Happen that is game stuff that's them being in the game that the cool thing about just being a little bit more aware of the game is a writer. Where is the director is it it forces characters be in the same together right and so I think you could look at a scene now. And sit there and go okay maybe this is a way to up them so I think. There is the goat thing and then related to that is that there is a character that can kind of dictate what the game is because they're in a little bit more of a power position and that's kind of interesting. Right so something that I'm going to be going to in in terms of part 2 thinking about is that there's these archetypes of characters that effectively I guess a lawyer characters in some way but there is like the referee the rules lawyer the person who's the arbitrator the harbinger in John Wick. Right there is the character that is the keeper of the knowledge of what the rules are right and there and there are people that kind of it here the rules and the people are always looking to break the rules it kind of related to the way that people play games.

I agree with all of that and so to use a private joke between you me and Mel that will alienate many listeners another baby Jesus dies.

One of the rules of drive zero is if someone agrees with me they have to sacrifice a baby.

We don't have sacrifice baby is the fact that whenever we agree with you a baby somewhere dies.

There's a lot of agreeing go wow this is just getting darker and darker.

Do we thank some Patreons.

Yes.

Thanks as always to our patrons who bring you more draft zero more often believe it or not and special thanks to our top tier patrons Lily Alexandra Kazimir Eduardo Garrett Jennifer Jesse Crobb Randy Sandra and Thies. Oh and Thomas.

And one last thanks to Alex you're a legend. All right cool see you soon for games 2.

Yeah games 2.

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